Magic Weapons and Keyword Inheritance

Obryn · Jun 28, 2008

Alright... So I have a Frost weapon. At-will it has a power with the Cold keyword that makes all damage dealt by the weapon Cold damage.

Let's say I'm a fighter. I make an attack - basic or not, doesn't matter - and have the Wintertouched feat.

Does my attack inherit the Cold keyword for the purposes of the feat? Or is it just explicitly as the weapon's power reads - that is, the damage dealt is cold, but my attack does not gain the Cold keyword?

-O

Danceofmasks · Jun 28, 2008

Yes, it does. PHB p226.

Wizards customer service has gone a step further, and have said any keywords anywhere on a weapon or implement are inherited when using said weapon or implement with a power.

I.e. Casting Fireball while wielding a Wand of Shield = adding force keyword to your fireball.

I think they're crazy. :blush:

Obryn · Jun 28, 2008

Danceofmasks said:
Yes, it does. PHB p226.

Wizards customer service has gone a step further, and have said any keywords anywhere on a weapon or implement are inherited when using said weapon or implement with a power.

I.e. Casting Fireball while wielding a Wand of Shield = adding force keyword to your fireball.

I think they're crazy.

Whoa.

OK, thanks!

-O

Erestor · Jun 30, 2008

Danceofmasks said:
Yes, it does. PHB p226.

Wizards customer service has gone a step further, and have said any keywords anywhere on a weapon or implement are inherited when using said weapon or implement with a power.

Are you sure of that ? I mean, ok, a keyword on a weapon is inherited when using the weapon WITH a power ...

But, if I understand well, the power of the Frost weapon is used "on" the weapon, to give it the ability to do frost damage; no power is used against a target - it's only an ATTACK [W] ... no power, no trigger of "wintertouched" feat ?

As a player, I hope i'm wrong, but ...

have a nice day

DracoSuave · Jun 30, 2008

Erestor said:
Are you sure of that ? I mean, ok, a keyword on a weapon is inherited when using the weapon WITH a power ...

But, if I understand well, the power of the Frost weapon is used "on" the weapon, to give it the ability to do frost damage; no power is used against a target - it's only an ATTACK [W] ... no power, no trigger of "wintertouched" feat ?

As a player, I hope i'm wrong, but ...

have a nice day

More oddly... the Frost weapon's ability would be redundant and useless.

At-will, all damage is cold damage. If all attacks inherited it, then all damage you -ever- dealt would be cold damage, regardless if you used the at-will or not.

The at-will specifically says you -can- turn it off, which implies that you can turn it -on-. Which implies the default state for the rule its the exception of is off.

Which implies that weapons don't auto-give their keywords to all powers used with it.

(Reliable would be a broken keyword on a weapon otherwise)

Andor · Jun 30, 2008

Here's one I'm trying to figure out.

Let's say you've got a Rogue Daggermaster with who likes to use the Wintertouched/Lasting Frost cheese fest to maintain his Combat Advantage.

If he uses a vicious dagger to get the most milage out of his expanded crit range, can the frost dagger in his off hand still give his attacks the cold keyword if he has the Two Weapon fighting feat?

Personally I think not, but there's room for debate.

DracoSuave · Jun 30, 2008

Andor said:
Here's one I'm trying to figure out.

Let's say you've got a Rogue Daggermaster with who likes to use the Wintertouched/Lasting Frost cheese fest to maintain his Combat Advantage.

If he uses a vicious dagger to get the most milage out of his expanded crit range, can the frost dagger in his off hand still give his attacks the cold keyword if he has the Two Weapon fighting feat?

Personally I think not, but there's room for debate.

All signs point to no. You're using one weapon or the other as the Weapon for your power, unless the power -specifically- says you're using both.

So, ranger multiclass into rogue for Daggermaster? That might work.

But then, I don't -believe- the frost weapon -gives- the power the cold keyword. It only makes the damage cold damage. The power keyword does not automatically assign rules to damage types, and vice versa.

EDIT:

Like racial powers and class powers, magic item
powers often have keywords that indicate their
damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as
part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords
of the item’s power and the other power all apply. For
instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack
with a power that deals radiant damage, the power
deals both fire damage and radiant damage.

On second thought, I stand corrected. Reading the PHB is good.

Altho I think this example is a bit ambiguous.

EDIT MOAR:

Suddenly the idea of a spellcaster taking Astral Fire and channeling all his powers, fire, radiant, or -other-, through a staff of Fiery Might.... seems not too terrible.

Ulthwithian · Jun 30, 2008

It's possible that a Frost weapon's At-Will ability actually converts all of an attack's damage to cold instead of whatever it was. Thus, in their example, while normally the attack would do (in this case) Frost and Radiant damage, if the at-will ability of the Frost Weapon were 'online', it would do just Frost damage.

DemonLord57 · Jun 30, 2008

Ulthwithian said:
It's possible that a Frost weapon's At-Will ability actually converts all of an attack's damage to cold instead of whatever it was. Thus, in their example, while normally the attack would do (in this case) Frost and Radiant damage, if the at-will ability of the Frost Weapon were 'online', it would do just Frost damage.

Yes, that is how it works.

On a side note: Oddly enough, with CustServ's other ruling, using the Frost Weapon's at-will ability doesn't give the power the keyword, so if not for this keyword inheritance, you could be doing all cold damage with a power with only the fire keyword... does that sound a bit stupid to anyone else?

Erestor · Jun 30, 2008

DracoSuave said:
EDIT:

Like racial powers and class powers, magic item
powers often have keywords that indicate their
damage or effect types. When you use a magic item as
part of a racial power or a class power, the keywords
of the item’s power and the other power all apply. For
instance, if a paladin uses a flaming sword to attack
with a power that deals radiant damage, the power
deals both fire damage and radiant damage.

I'm Ok with that; but "Wintertouched/Lasting Frost Feat" does not trigger when the target take Frost damage, but when you use AGAINST target a power with the keyword "Frost".

I don't think making a melee attack is the same as using a power ?

(i may be wrong)

If I'm wrong, can a Rogue use the Wintertouched/Lasting Frost feat Combo to maintain his Combat Advantage, and then doing with is frost dagger "Sneak attack" every time ?

Seems to be a little bit overpowered to me !

Magic Weapons and Keyword Inheritance

Obryn

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