Practical Dread Necromancer build

Erenthia · Jul 6, 2008

I've asked the DM, and he doesn't much care about the requirements that aren't important to the actual roleplaying. In his words, "what's a high fort save have to do with stealing the power of the gods?".

I *believe* that starting level will be about 6th, but I'm not sure about that. (I asked him and he told me, but I forgot).

Also he's a little iffy about an Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge combo, but he said he'd think about it. I will look into the DN/UP/TN combo, but as TN is a weird 14 level class that I probably won't qualify for until at least 10th-12th level, then it might turn out to be underpowered, but we'll see.

Jack Simth · Jul 6, 2008

True Necromancer is designed for a Wizard-3/Cleric-3. On top of that, it loses two caster levels on each side - so at 20th, the designed entry casts as a Wizard-15/Cleric-15 - no 9th level spells (other than the Spell-likes gained as part of the class itself). Basically, unless you're using a fast-advancement PrC as the base for the +Spellcasting, you never get 9th level spells with it.

Now, Dread Necromancer fits your flavor all by itself (Raising undead, hating the dieties is just flavor) - as does the Ur-Priest (cleric spell list includes Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell, so you'll be able to do that at character level 8 with earliest entry Ur-Priest, and hating the dieties is somewhat inherent to the Ur-Priest class write-up). A Theurge is really only needed to balance with the other full casters if you expect the game to go above about 17th or 18th (as the Ur-Priest doesn't get many 9th level spells per day, even at full progression).

Now, if you can convince your DM that you can play a cause-cleric with the cause being "hating gods" you could go pure Cleric without compromising anything - domains maybe Death and Destruction, or some such.

Erenthia · Jul 7, 2008

I don't particularly expect this to go past level 16 or 17. And yeah the True Necromancer doesn't much add anything so I'm leaning towards DN/UP/MT unless I can think of a desirable gish build. Maybe buff my DR with some feats out of savage species or something, then get the evolved template.

Not sure if a Dread-Necro/Paladin of Tyrrany?/Eldritch Knight would be worth it, but it actually sounds fairly fun. Arcane Disciple(War) + wand of divine power could be all kinds of awesome...but I don't know if it would work out in terms of number crunch.

rgard · Jul 7, 2008

Erenthia said:
I've asked the DM, and he doesn't much care about the requirements that aren't important to the actual roleplaying. In his words, "what's a high fort save have to do with stealing the power of the gods?".

I *believe* that starting level will be about 6th, but I'm not sure about that. (I asked him and he told me, but I forgot).

Also he's a little iffy about an Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge combo, but he said he'd think about it. I will look into the DN/UP/TN combo, but as TN is a weird 14 level class that I probably won't qualify for until at least 10th-12th level, then it might turn out to be underpowered, but we'll see.

When I first read Ur-Priest in the BoVD I at first thought it was a bit powerful to use with Mystic Theurge. Problem is that once you hit 10th level in Ur-Priest, you are done. You'll have the one 9th level spell and that is it. For long term development of the character, Cleric is a better choice for the divine side of Mystic Theurge. Also, you won't be taking more than 8 levels of MT as you'll run out Ur-Priest levels.

Show your DM that you'll be capped with one 9th level spell while the clerics will go on to more. That said, you did say you think things will end around 16th or 17th level so the point may be moot.

Thanks,
Rich

Runestar · Jul 7, 2008

The problem with ur-priest is not so much of its retarded spell slot progression, but more of its accelerated rate of spell gain. You can access 9th lv spells at lv14 (not mystic theurge route), which may or may not be problematic. Granted, you only get one (though you could burn your lower lv slots to acquire more).

Then there is the whole issue regarding its steal SLA ability (use planar binding to snag genies for 3 free wishes each day). It was clearly designed to be used as an NPC, and less so as a PC.

MadMaxim · Jul 7, 2008

Jack Simth said:
Don't even need Spontaneous Healer, really.

Simpler route, though - take Tomb-tainted soul, and require everyone else take it, too. Suddenly your Charnel Touch is a free Cure Light Wounds usable at will, and you can get the stronger healing effects by way of the Inflict and Harm line that's already on your spell list.

I would have suggested the very same thing. Tomb-Tainted Soul is an essential addition to a Dread Necromancer. The feat becomes obsolete at 20th level when you turn into a lich, but there's a long way to 20th level and as you mentioned, Erenthia, many campaigns don't make it that far. Furthermore, most monsters don't use cure spells offensively, so you're more competent against evil Clerics who spontaneously convert their spells into inflict spells. Other than that, I'd really just recommend that you stay with the Dread Necromancer class, because many of its abilities are tied to your class level but multiclassing into Warlock and going for Eldritch Theurge could also prove beneficial.

Jack Simth · Jul 7, 2008

rgard said:
When I first read Ur-Priest in the BoVD I at first thought it was a bit powerful to use with Mystic Theurge. Problem is that once you hit 10th level in Ur-Priest, you are done. You'll have the one 9th level spell and that is it. For long term development of the character, Cleric is a better choice for the divine side of Mystic Theurge. Also, you won't be taking more than 8 levels of MT as you'll run out Ur-Priest levels.

Show your DM that you'll be capped with one 9th level spell while the clerics will go on to more. That said, you did say you think things will end around 16th or 17th level so the point may be moot.

Thanks,
Rich

Runestar said:
The problem with ur-priest is not so much of its retarded spell slot progression, but more of its accelerated rate of spell gain. You can access 9th lv spells at lv14 (not mystic theurge route), which may or may not be problematic. Granted, you only get one (though you could burn your lower lv slots to acquire more).

Then there is the whole issue regarding its steal SLA ability (use planar binding to snag genies for 3 free wishes each day). It was clearly designed to be used as an NPC, and less so as a PC.

Both of these are true.

Ur-Priest is broken-strong in that it gets early spell access (potential for 9th level spells at 14th, if you take the earliest-entry route and pump Wisdom, and can steal brokenly-strong SLA's from critters.

Ur-Priest is fairly weak in that it gets only a small number of spell slots, so that it's weaker in the long run.

That is to say, the Whatever-5/Ur-Priest-10 is stronger, mechanically, than the Cleric-15, but the Cleric-20 is generally stronger than the Whatever-10/Ur-Priest 10 (if you discount stealing the three wishes SLA from Efreeti).

Mind you, the Ur-Theurge gets really, really strong (a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Full advancement Arcanist PrC-4 (Sublime Chord) doesn't have the Ur-Priest's spell-slot issue (two sets of thin spell slots total to about the same as the Cleric gets), while maintaining the Ur-Priest's early spell access (9th level spells at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom) ... but at 20th, it's around the same spellcasting strength as the Sorcerer or Cleric.

rgard · Jul 7, 2008

Jack Simth said:
Both of these are true.

Mind you, the Ur-Theurge gets really, really strong (a Savage Bard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3(Savage Bard/Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord)-5/Full advancement Arcanist PrC-4 (Sublime Chord) doesn't have the Ur-Priest's spell-slot issue (two sets of thin spell slots total to about the same as the Cleric gets), while maintaining the Ur-Priest's early spell access (9th level spells at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom) ... but at 20th, it's around the same spellcasting strength as the Sorcerer or Cleric.

My head is spinning!!! Thanks for posting this.

My build for the one Ur-Priest MT I played was Paladin of Freedom (Fallen)-1/ Wizard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Spellsword-1/Ruathar-3. The goal being having a 9th level Divine spell and 9th level Arcane spell by 20th level. I was the way I figured out how to get 9 and 9 by 20th, but there are other builds I know from reading these boards.

Thanks,
Rich

Jack Simth · Jul 8, 2008

rgard said:
My head is spinning!!! Thanks for posting this.

My build for the one Ur-Priest MT I played was Paladin of Freedom (Fallen)-1/ Wizard-5/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Spellsword-1/Ruathar-3. The goal being having a 9th level Divine spell and 9th level Arcane spell by 20th level. I was the way I figured out how to get 9 and 9 by 20th, but there are other builds I know from reading these boards.

Thanks,
Rich

A more common route using a Wizard base would be Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Full Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4. It's hard to pull off, though, as the Ur-Priest has some social skill requirements (which, you know, you can meet on the one level of Mindbender with the high Int wizards take). End with Wiz-18, Ur-Priest-10 casting; 9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom), 9th level Arcane spells at 19th. The Trick is that Mindbender is a 1/2 advancement PrC... that has advancement on the odd levels, and a good Fort save. It's also got a lot of social skills on it's class skill list. This particular build, at 20th, is basically a Wizard minus two 9th, one 8th, and one 7th level Arcane spell slots, but gaining a bunch of Divine spell slots at similar spell levels and lower a little early.

Runestar · Jul 8, 2008

A more common route using a Wizard base would be Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Full Arcane Advancement PrC of Choice-4.

Beguiler might be a better choice than wizard, since it has access to a much better class skill list and enough skill points to let you pump those skills. Throw in able learner and you can even pass off as a decent trap-monkey, since you should have a decent int score as well. A little MAD, but should still be doable.

Practical Dread Necromancer build

Erenthia

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Erenthia

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rgard

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Runestar

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MadMaxim

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