Damage Per Round

Revinor · Jul 6, 2008

One more thing - looking at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229092
it seems that attacking Reflex should be estimated more like 2.5-3 bonus compared to AC rather than just 1.

What is with critical for Warlock 11 Eldritch Blast 23 ? Seems that extras from magic rod/wand are not added in.

loisel · Jul 7, 2008

Revinor said:
One more thing - looking at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229092
it seems that attacking Reflex should be estimated more like 2.5-3 bonus compared to AC rather than just 1.

I know, I saw it yesterday, but I haven't yet decided what changes to make. In the mean time, keep that in mind when you look at the graphs.

What is with critical for Warlock 11 Eldritch Blast 23 ? Seems that extras from magic rod/wand are not added in.

Thanks for catching this error. I have fixed it and uploaded new versions, although I didn't bump the version number.

loisel · Jul 7, 2008

Revinor said:
I know it is a lot of work to prepare it, but what about actually sticking to PHB races? I don't really think that classes were balanced against MM races, so having same graph for PHB races would be great.

Done. The results are not very much different, just that everybody got shifted down a bit.

Roxlimn · Jul 7, 2008

You want to replace Cloud of Daggers with Magic Missile backed by a Frost implement and Bracers of the Perfect Shot. That ought to do a decent amount of damage on the left side of the chart, but the right side will suffer. Also targeting Ref is worth at least a +3 to hit compared to AC.

Also, I don't understand the numbers besides each designation. Is that estimated damage? The damage for the Warlock seems a little low.

loisel · Jul 7, 2008

Roxlimn said:
You want to replace Cloud of Daggers with Magic Missile backed by a Frost implement and Bracers of the Perfect Shot.

I'll look into it, but at level 11, all I'll be using is the +2 to damage. So a magic missile is 2d4+2 + the rest, or average of 7 + the rest, whereas cloud of daggers is 1d6+the rest, and then later an automatic (wis bonus) damage. So that comes out to 1d6+6+the rest, which averages 9.5+ the rest. So my gut tells me that Cloud of Daggers is still better.

EDIT: oh and I forgot. One of the reasons Cloud of Daggers is amazing is because it nets you 2x the Vulnerability 5 damage. That's because it's really two separate times that you damage your enemy, and both times are cold damage with the wand.

In addition, Cloud of Daggers guarantees that every hit procs Lasting Frost, since the Wis Bonus damage comes from the Spell, which is Cold damage, which means that there is a 100% probability that your opponent is Cold vulnerable (which I take into account). On the other hand, Magic Missile does not always hit, which means that some rounds you will not have the Vulnerability...

Even if you gave the character a +4 Bracer, it would still be 9 vs 9.5...

Also, I don't understand the numbers besides each designation. Is that estimated damage? The damage for the Warlock seems a little low.

That's my code for the ability scores of my characters. I forgot to describe that in the top post (will fix in a minute). When it's just one number, it's the primary stat (e.g., a Feylock with 23 would be 23 Charisma). When it's two numbers separated by a slash, it's primary/secondary. So a Stormwarden with 22/21 has Str 22, Dex 21. The primary is the stat you use to roll to hit. Even though I think a Stormwarden should have more Dex than Str, the primary stat is Str.

The damage from the warlocks is indeed low, but that's just the way it is.

Roxlimn · Jul 7, 2008

I don't think that Lasting Frost combo works the way you think it does.

loisel · Jul 7, 2008

Roxlimn said:
I don't think that Lasting Frost combo works the way you think it does.

Why not?

The Wand of Frost or whatever, puts the [cold] keyword on Cloud of Daggers. This means that half of all damage dealt by Cloud of Dagger is cold. On your turn, you attack. Maybe you hit, maybe you don't, but half of that damage is cold. Then, on your opponent's turn (at the beginning), he takes another Wis damage, from your Cloud of Dagger power, so half of that is cold as well.

At this point, for sure, Lasting Frost has activated.

Now comes your turn again. Say you miss. Then comes your enemy's turn again. He's in the Cloud of Daggers, so he takes Wis damage, half of which is cold. So he also takes damage for his Vulnerability to cold, and Lasting Frost activates again.

Now comes your turn again. Say you hit. Then half the damage is cold, so he takes the damage for his vulnerability to cold. Then it's his turn again. He takes Wis damage, half of which is cold, so the vulnerability procs again.

I don't see where I went wrong...?

Klaumbaz · Jul 7, 2008

DPR in isolation and "sterile" combat against the universal punching dummy isn't the be-all end-all of class ability.

many classes shine much better than your showing.

This is only single target vs single target, not allowing for various conditions, multiple rounds of combat, and a host of other problems.

How about you make 100 different scenario's ranging from one single target badass to a horde of a bajillion minions, and then multiply that by different environments (forest, cave, partial darkness, snow, fog, rain, etc). and log each action each round, and then post the statistical results?

Taldrin · Jul 7, 2008

Still not the point.

Klaumbaz said:
DPR in isolation and "sterile" combat against the universal punching dummy isn't the be-all end-all of class ability.

many classes shine much better than your showing.

This is only single target vs single target, not allowing for various conditions, multiple rounds of combat, and a host of other problems.

How about you make 100 different scenario's ranging from one single target badass to a horde of a bajillion minions, and then multiply that by different environments (forest, cave, partial darkness, snow, fog, rain, etc). and log each action each round, and then post the statistical results?

Wow, this is why I love forum threads. Some people never read past the first post (if that) thus continuing to address non points that were brought up and dismissed several posts ago. As stated by GnomeWorks: "Not the point of the thread. It's an examination of potential damage output, not asking whether the classes are balanced or not."

Archus · Jul 7, 2008

loisel said:
The damage from the warlocks is indeed low, but that's just the way it is.

My Warlock player has been wondering exactly how a Warlock is supposed to be a striker. She feels somewhere between a rogue and a wizard without the damage of the rogue or control of a wizard. And many at the table see how the cleric out controls the wizard (at least in AoE).

Since it is about the effectiveness of the party and not a competition of how powerful characters are we are concerned about balance and role protection. Thus far we see a need for some adjustments for role protection, but we have only played for a little while and expect to know better after a few more adventures are under our belts.

Damage Per Round

Revinor

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loisel

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loisel

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Roxlimn

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loisel

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Roxlimn

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loisel

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Klaumbaz

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Taldrin

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Archus

Explorer

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