spm, I have and have posted pretty much the exact same thing in those threads as well. Looking at anything in 4e in a bottle is a pointless endeavour. For any given round in an encounter one has to lok at all the resources available to the PARTY in that round and what combination is the best for the situation. Anything less is lots of theory little practical...
Damage Per Round
Old Gumphrey
First Post
Gotta love that we're comparing a bugbear ranger with a level 7 fighter power and the scimitar dance feat to a generic warlock with a level 3 area power using it on a single target.
Gotta love that we're comparing a bugbear ranger with a level 7 fighter power and the scimitar dance feat to a generic warlock with a level 3 area power using it on a single target.
I tried to compare the bugbear ranger to a non-infernal warlock, and that's the best I could come up with. On the other hand, I did find a good combo with the Life-Stealer, but I guess you were too busy prejudging my calculations to notice.
I can't tell if you're figuring encounter-duration dailies into this. You mentioned Rain of Steel though. Is this comparison only for the first round in an encounter?
Apart from powers like Rain of Steel there's Armor of Agathys (warlock level 1 daily), and a bunch of wizard dailies that apply automatic damage over an entire encounter.
Did you consider multiclass combos? Fighter picking up Armor of Agathys, or Warlock picking up Rain of Steel, etc.?
The absence of all this would of course skew the DPR results against the classes that feature more of these powers.
Also: Why Spellstorm Mage for Wizard? No Blood Mage with Bolstering Blood on Cloud-of-Daggers?
Apart from powers like Rain of Steel there's Armor of Agathys (warlock level 1 daily), and a bunch of wizard dailies that apply automatic damage over an entire encounter.
Did you consider multiclass combos? Fighter picking up Armor of Agathys, or Warlock picking up Rain of Steel, etc.?
The absence of all this would of course skew the DPR results against the classes that feature more of these powers.
Also: Why Spellstorm Mage for Wizard? No Blood Mage with Bolstering Blood on Cloud-of-Daggers?
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Good point, although I'm starting to regret having added that option for Rain of Steel, because I'm sensing a combinatorial explosion. You are right about Armor of Agathys, it's an awesome spell for DPR, better than Rain of Steel. I'm not 100% sure how it plays out in the duel for a Warlock, for the following reason.
Right now, I'm assuming that it's a "reasonable" duel, and that if you're a Warlock, each turn you start by sliding 1 square, then zapping him. The result is that the opponent doesn't start his turn adjacent to you. You could omit the slide, but then you would draw an OA...
But a Fighter who multiclasses into Warlock and picks up this daily, that would make an awesome combo. You can even layer it on top of Rain of Steel (holy crap!)
I'm going to think how to handle this. Maybe what I'll do is, I'll mention that there are lots of dailies that last for the whole encounter, but that I only give one example in the text at level 20? Whaddayathink?
That's a good idea, I'll try to add it.
Overall, I think this is a wonderful analysis!
I took a closer look at your DPR formulas and think I found some mistakes in your calculations...
1) For the 'Quarry' part of the equation (which covers warlock curse damage, ranger quarry, and rogue sneak attack damage) you are accounting for multiple attacks in both your probability and damage. Per the rules, this damage can only be applied once per round. This should greatly simplify this section of your calculation down to PHit(Dam) + PCrit(Dam).
2) I am confused about your addition of the 'Auto' damage in the extra damage section. It looks like you have already accounted for attribute modifier damage in the basic attack damages. This portion should be omitted from the calculation if it is already accounted for in the basic attack damages. What would grant this automatic damage anyway?
Additionally, it appears that some of your 'Toon' data is incorrectly entered in some cases (I only looked at the level 1 data). It appears some min/max damages in accordance to the attribute values you provided are incorrect. Perhaps this was due to an assumed feat? Also the warrior and mage had some automatic damage being added to the equation.
Other Comments:
In your assumptions you state that secondary effects will trigger 50% of the time. I think this should extend also include the extra attack a fighter would get for an adjacent marked opponent moving or shifting.
It might be useful to indicate which feats are included in your analysis cases.
The general analysis should only include At-Will powers since this is the bread-and-butter of each class. A comparison of daily, encounter, or any combination of these is only really valid for a single round of combat.
I took a closer look at your DPR formulas and think I found some mistakes in your calculations...
1) For the 'Quarry' part of the equation (which covers warlock curse damage, ranger quarry, and rogue sneak attack damage) you are accounting for multiple attacks in both your probability and damage. Per the rules, this damage can only be applied once per round. This should greatly simplify this section of your calculation down to PHit(Dam) + PCrit(Dam).
2) I am confused about your addition of the 'Auto' damage in the extra damage section. It looks like you have already accounted for attribute modifier damage in the basic attack damages. This portion should be omitted from the calculation if it is already accounted for in the basic attack damages. What would grant this automatic damage anyway?
Additionally, it appears that some of your 'Toon' data is incorrectly entered in some cases (I only looked at the level 1 data). It appears some min/max damages in accordance to the attribute values you provided are incorrect. Perhaps this was due to an assumed feat? Also the warrior and mage had some automatic damage being added to the equation.
Other Comments:
In your assumptions you state that secondary effects will trigger 50% of the time. I think this should extend also include the extra attack a fighter would get for an adjacent marked opponent moving or shifting.
It might be useful to indicate which feats are included in your analysis cases.
The general analysis should only include At-Will powers since this is the bread-and-butter of each class. A comparison of daily, encounter, or any combination of these is only really valid for a single round of combat.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Hi Natro, welcome to ENWorld!
-blarg
WTH does that mean? Toon is a separate game has no relevance to any edition of D&D.
-blarg
Dear Natro,
Thanks for your comments.
Your equation is incorrect. The equation that I have is more complicated, but I think it is correct. The basic idea is this. If you have 50% of missing on an attack, and if you have two attacks, then you have (50% x 50%) = 25% chance of missing on both attacks. Hence, you have a probability of 75% of hitting at least once. Therefore, you must add 75% of quarry damage. In general, if you hit with probability P, then (1-P) is the probability of missing, and (1-P)^2 is the probability of missing twice in a row, and 1-(1-P)^2 is the probability of hitting either once or twice.
The equation you propose is only correct if you have a single attack.
This is not the attribute damage. The auto damage is damage that occurs regardless whether you hit or miss. For instance, a Stormwarden gets to apply Dex Bonus damage to one adjacent for at the end of each turn. Since this is a duel, I assume that every round, the stormwarden bases the enemy and hits, so at the end of each round, that one enemy gets dex bonus damage.
There are other ways of delivering automatic damage. For instance, a mage with "cloud of dagger" will automatically deal Wisdom Bonus damage to a foe that begins its turn in the square of the spell. Therefore, hit or miss, you get Wisdom Bonus damage once per turn.
Yes, as detailed in the first post of this thread, I assume that the toons have all the pertinent feats. Mostly, this means Weapon Focus, or the equivalent feats for spells. In addition, as detailed in the first post in this thread, I am giving a flat +1 bonus to hit if you target Reflex, and +3 bonus to hit if you target Fort or Will. Although a Reflex attack is not directly comparable to an AC attack, the intent is to make them more comparable in this fashion.
No, what I assume is, that your foe attacks you every turn and hits you 50% of the time. If you have a power that depends on being attacked or hit, that's where this 50% comes in. There are no OA in this duel, because it's just a duel without any complications.
I think I listed them in the top post: weapon focus, scimitar dance or hammer rhythm and lasting frost are the main ones.
There is one chart with encounter powers. Feel free to ignore it. The level 20 chart has a couple of toons using a daily stance power. Feel free to ignore those lines as well.
Thanks for your comments.
Your equation is incorrect. The equation that I have is more complicated, but I think it is correct. The basic idea is this. If you have 50% of missing on an attack, and if you have two attacks, then you have (50% x 50%) = 25% chance of missing on both attacks. Hence, you have a probability of 75% of hitting at least once. Therefore, you must add 75% of quarry damage. In general, if you hit with probability P, then (1-P) is the probability of missing, and (1-P)^2 is the probability of missing twice in a row, and 1-(1-P)^2 is the probability of hitting either once or twice.
The equation you propose is only correct if you have a single attack.
This is not the attribute damage. The auto damage is damage that occurs regardless whether you hit or miss. For instance, a Stormwarden gets to apply Dex Bonus damage to one adjacent for at the end of each turn. Since this is a duel, I assume that every round, the stormwarden bases the enemy and hits, so at the end of each round, that one enemy gets dex bonus damage.
There are other ways of delivering automatic damage. For instance, a mage with "cloud of dagger" will automatically deal Wisdom Bonus damage to a foe that begins its turn in the square of the spell. Therefore, hit or miss, you get Wisdom Bonus damage once per turn.
Yes, as detailed in the first post of this thread, I assume that the toons have all the pertinent feats. Mostly, this means Weapon Focus, or the equivalent feats for spells. In addition, as detailed in the first post in this thread, I am giving a flat +1 bonus to hit if you target Reflex, and +3 bonus to hit if you target Fort or Will. Although a Reflex attack is not directly comparable to an AC attack, the intent is to make them more comparable in this fashion.
No, what I assume is, that your foe attacks you every turn and hits you 50% of the time. If you have a power that depends on being attacked or hit, that's where this 50% comes in. There are no OA in this duel, because it's just a duel without any complications.
I think I listed them in the top post: weapon focus, scimitar dance or hammer rhythm and lasting frost are the main ones.
There is one chart with encounter powers. Feel free to ignore it. The level 20 chart has a couple of toons using a daily stance power. Feel free to ignore those lines as well.
For the 'lock, if he's Infernal and using Hellish Rebuke, it's quite possibly worthwhile for him to intentionally take the OA for using it adjacent. With say a 20 starting Con on a Dwarf, with a minor action Second Wind to help with his damage taken as well, it's a viable tactic. Note that the OA on Hellish Rebuke will not trigger in the same turn, because OAs are interrupts and will resolve before Hellish Rebuke does, but it will trigger damage from last turn's HR. The combo yields up to 3 hits/round, triggering Cold vulnerability up to 3 times in the process.
The Fighter/Warlock with a Frost weapon, Wintertouched/Lasting Frost, Armor of Agathys, along with the rest of the fighter goodies should go pretty high yea.
I think allowing 1 encounter-duration daily might be relevant for the paragon and epic tiers, where character have 3-4 dailies. The above Fighter/Warlock for example, could have all three of Armor of Agathys, Rain of Steel and Unyielding Avalanche, and use them separately in three encounters.
