Damage Per Round

Splart said:

Next, let's look at line 129, the Elf Ranger 11 Stormwarden Twin Strike Scimitar 19/22. For his base damage, the damage range is +2 weapon, +1 weapon spec and +1 TWF, and 1d8 weapon damage to give 5 to 12 range. For his crit range, first we give the max 12 damage for crit, then add 2 W since this is a scimitar, a high crit weapon. This is the same as hit base attack, so this adds 2 X ( 5 to 12 ) = 10 to 24. Adding 12 for the crit, we have 22 to 36. Now we also add 2d6 for the frost weapon crit, giving 24 to 48.

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You're counting the +4 to damage three times or something. The damage on a crit is 1d8 (base, maximized), +2d8 (high crit), +2d6 (frost), +2 (weapon focus), +2 (enhancement bonus). TWF is not counted (as noted in the first post), because it was complicating my calculations and is a minor bonus.

So the end result is 8 (base) + 2-16 (high crit) + 2-12 (frost) + 2 (weapon focuse) +2 (enhancement bonus), which is 16-40, as in the spreadsheet.

P.S. One high damage combination I didn't see is a rogue who forgoes his paragon path to steal the Ranger At-will of Twin Strike.

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That's an interesting suggestion, and like all the rogues it will probably do well against low armor foes, but poorly against high armor foes. The reason is that, although you can get something like 3d8+str bonus backstab, vs 2d8 for quarry, you lose the scimitar dance (since backstab only works on light blades...)

loisel said:

You're counting the +4 to damage three times or something.

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Thanks, you're right. I had confused the definition of 2 [W]. PHB 278 set me straight.

On the flip side, for line 85, the Bugbear Rogue Shadow Ass. 11 Torturous Rapier 22/21, it looks like his feat damage is simply 2 X his normal damage, as in line 55 for the Bugbear Rogue Shadow Ass. 11 Riposte Rapier 22/21. The 2 [W] for Torturous Strike should only double the weapon damage, and not the Dex bonus and Weapon Spec bonus, etc, so the Torturous Strike Primary Damage should be equal to the Riposte damage plus a d4.

loisel said:

That's an interesting suggestion, and like all the rogues it will probably do well against low armor foes, but poorly against high armor foes. The reason is that, although you can get something like 3d8+str bonus backstab, vs 2d8 for quarry, you lose the scimitar dance (since backstab only works on light blades...)

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High armor doesn't come into play that much. Even dealing with an Elite Soldier like a Red Dragon, the AC is usually level + 18, compared with level + 14 for the average monster. Sliding over 4 AC slots on the charts doesn't hit the areas where the minimum damage for Scimitar Dance or Hammer Rhythm are critical.

--Splart

Splart said:

the Bugbear Rogue Shadow Ass. 11 Torturous Rapier 22/21, it looks like his feat damage is simply 2 X his normal damage, as in line 55 for the Bugbear Rogue Shadow Ass.

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For the encounter block, I've assumed that you wait until you've got the frost vulnerability on to strike your opponent. That adds a flat 5 damage to all damage rolls.

This character (row 85) is a Brutal Scoundrel hitting with Torturous Strike with a Large Rapier. His damage is 2d10 (Large Rapier) +6 (Dex) +5 (Str) +2 (Enhancement) +2 (Weapon Focus) +5 (Cold Vulnerability).

So the range is [2-20]+6+5+2+2+5, which is 22-40, as in the spreadsheet.

Did I get something wrong?

On line 107,108 and I would assume other reaping maul using fighters you are stacking the damage on miss form reaping and hammer rhythm (7+6=13). My understanding of the hammer rhythm feat is that it will add you constitution damage if "you wouldn't otherwise still deal damage" (p203). Perhaps the added 6 is coming form some other feat or power?

Further more the reason I noticed this is that I'm trying to understand how you are adding damage form Unyielding Avalanche. My assumption is that you are adding the average damage of the attack in the Extra field but I have yet to come up with the combination of feat bonuses, and enchantments that results in 30 any insight you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. Very nice spreadsheet thank you for sharing.

grailhawk said:

On line 107,108 and I would assume other reaping maul using fighters you are stacking the damage on miss form reaping and hammer rhythm (7+6=13). My understanding of the hammer rhythm feat is that it will add you constitution damage if "you wouldn't otherwise still deal damage" (p203). Perhaps the added 6 is coming form some other feat or power?

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Thanks for catching that error, I will make corrections and upload new versions.

Further more the reason I noticed this is that I'm trying to understand how you are adding damage form Unyielding Avalanche. My assumption is that you are adding the average damage of the attack in the Extra field but I have yet to come up with the combination of feat bonuses, and enchantments that results in 30 any insight you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

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I recall I had a hard time with that one, and I think there's another error here (thanks for catching it.)

First off, I figured that Unyielding Avalanche would proc the Lasting Cold (it has the [weapon] tag, so your frost maul tacks on the [cold] tag...) So basically you have 100% chance of having the benefit of cold vulnerability each strike. This means that instead of putting 5 in the "Lasting Frost" column, I should have put 0 and added 5 to all the other damages. I see that I kind of screwed that up.

The Unyielding avalanche damage is 2d8 (Large Maul), +2 (Weapon Focus), +4 (Enhancement), +4 (Kensei), +5 (cold vulnerability), which is 24 on average. I think I mistakenly added the Str bonus. I will fix it.

Another thing is, there's a FAQ which makes it so that you can't deal the extra cleave damage to your main target, so the Cleave lines are wrong...

Loisel,

Thanks, I understand the Bugbear damage now. I noticed that the first level rogue is using a rapier, and also has the weapon specialization feat, which is not possible for a halfling.

Why does the level 1 longbow ranger have +9 to hit? All I can find is +5 Dex, +2 prof, +1 prime shot. Is there something else?

By the way, I finished the spreadsheet I mentioned to show the amount of damage given and taken over the lifespan of the PC. Here's the post on it: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4399004

I checked the damage against your sheet, and our results match. I didn't do the check to see if the Lasting Frost had landed or not, since I figure more than one PC in the party will be taking care of that, so it's safe to assume the monster will always be vulnerable.

Let me know what you think.

--Splart

Splart said:

Loisel,

Thanks, I understand the Bugbear damage now. I noticed that the first level rogue is using a rapier, and also has the weapon specialization feat, which is not possible for a halfling.

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What? Damage is 1d8 (W) + 4 (Dex) +4 (Cha), which is 9-16. He's got Weapon Prof (Rapier), and that's it... Did I make an error?

Why does the level 1 longbow ranger have +9 to hit? All I can find is +5 Dex, +2 prof, +1 prime shot. Is there something else?

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My mistake. I was convinced Longbow was +3 prof.

By the way, I finished the spreadsheet I mentioned to show the amount of damage given and taken over the lifespan of the PC.

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Good job. I'm looking at it now.

Thanks, I'm clear on the halfling rogue with sly flourish. My mistake.

Your answer above about the Rain of Steel damage kicked up something I've been struggling with. For high crit weapons, it says add an extra 1 W to the attack, which I thought meant you get to add feats, magic, etc, but on PHB 276, it clearly explains that this is not the case for 2 W or more attacks. Yet, for Rain of Steel, it says you do only 1 W. My guess is that the designers meant for this to be only the weapon damage, without any additional modifiers. I've got no FAQs to back that up, but it makes more sense to me than the interpretation that it is normal auto-hit minus dex against all adjacent monsters. Maybe designer clarification will be coming later.

--Splart

Splart said:

Your answer above about the Rain of Steel damage kicked up something I've been struggling with. For high crit weapons, it says add an extra 1 W to the attack, which I thought meant you get to add feats, magic, etc, but on PHB 276, it clearly explains that this is not the case for 2 W or more attacks.

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Keep reading a bit further on PHB276 to dispel your doubt. On a 2[W], you get to add your bonuses as usual. On a crit, you maximize that damage, then add any random dice to the damage (again, example on PHB276). You don't get to add your bonuses twice.

You miss my point. I'm clear about the scimitar damage. My guess is that WotC meant for Rain of Steel to do only weapon damage, not weapon damage plus WF, plus weapon enhancement, plus etc. Again, this is just a theory, since the power seems so over powered, and I don't know of any FAQs or errata that back it up.


By the way, I was comparing our damage formulas and think you should take a look at your quarry probability again. You've divided the quarry damage into the situation where one of two attacks is a critical, and where neither attack is a critical but one attack hits. Unfortunately, the PC doesn't get to choose to apply his quarry when the crit lands. If he rolls a normal hit on the first attack and crits on the second attack, he will only do normal quarry damage, not crit quarry.

Also, the chance of hitting with a normal attack is not a dependent probability on not hitting with a critical attack, so it should not be multiplied against the chance of not having a critical hit. The chance of having a normal hit without a critical isn't (chance of no crit) * (chance of a normal hit), but rather (chance of having a normal hit) - 2 * (chance of a crit and normal hit combo). Fortunately, this isn't necessary to calculate due to the first point above.

In math,

(1-(1-PCrit)^PCattacks)*crit quarry dmg + (1-PCrit)^PCattacks*(1-(1-PHit)^PCattacks) * average quarry dmg)

Should be:

(1-(1-Pmiss)^PCattacks)*(crit quarry dmg * Pcrit + average quarry dmg * PHit)/(PCrit + PHit)

If it makes a difference to you, I'm not a math professor anywhere.