KotSf magic items...Forked Thread: A 4E magic item conundrum

Forked from: A 4E magic item conundrum

Falstaff said:

Sure, you can do it that way. But I still argue that the DMG doesn't explain the game that way. My suggestion - if you want to run a game that's easier to maintain - is to follow the guidelines as they're presented in the DMG.

If you reverse engineer Keep on the Shadowfell you'll see that the Treasure Parcel awards follow the DMG exactly.

I should mention that I realize there are a multitude of ways to re-interpret the rules, but I'm the kind of DM that follows the rules closely. I find that always make for a better game simply because I'm not clever enough to design game systems or have the time to playtest them as much as D&D's game system has been tested. I think it is a better game when played by the rules that have been playtested and designed by professional game designers.

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I have herd (aand with no supporting proof math or even a compelling reason beyond gut feeling) and belive this is not true the treasue does not appear to me to be like the parsels...on the WotC board someone said if you went through the whole adventure ou would have 3 level (almost 4th) PCs with 5th (almost 6th) level gear...

I've had to do some scaling for KotS and at least for the encounters that lead up to the characters being second level, the treasure handouts match up with the guidelines in the DMG.

I mentioned this in another thread, let me break it down.

The level one treasure is correct as far as magic. Magic items of 2, 3, 4, and 5.
Coins equal 649.6 in gp. Plus two art items worth 630gp together. That's a bit high.

However, the second level treasure outlay follows. Magic items of 1, 3, 4, and 5. A first level item replaces the required 6th?
Coins equal 741 in gp. 10 art items worth 550 in gp together. And three potions of healing.

Level three treasure was magic items of 2, 3, 5, and 6. A 2 and 3 instead of a 4 and 7?
Coins equal 1560.4 in gp. 3 art items totaling 455 in gp together.

Total treasure for party levels 1, 2, and 3 should be, according to the DMG, 3115 in coins, art, and potions. In addition magic items as follows: 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, and 7.

Not cointing quest rewards, KotS gave out 2951 gp in coins. 1785 gp in art and potions. Totaling 4736. And as mentioned above magic items are equal except a missing 4th, 6th, and 7th which were replaced by a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Those missing magic items are worth 5240gp, and were only replaced by items worth 1560gp. That's a 3680 gp difference. But even including the quest rewards below KotS only gives an extra 2471 above the 3115 standard for those levels. That's a deficit of over 1200 gp.

Possible hook rewards of 250 and 250. The lord also offered rewards of 100 and 250. But you must also keep in mind that those quests also gave out xp, so those rewards are taking the place of parcels they could be getting from defeating enemies.

The biggest problem is obviously the inclusion of lower level magic items in replacing the higher level ones necessary. I'm not sure if they tried to balance this out by handing out more art items/coins. But even if they did, they came up short. Not to mention that this adventure came out before the books that contained anything for players to spend any of that extra coin on.

Heh, I hope that wasn't confusing. But I was trying to compile it as quickly as I could, I've got errands to run. Bottom line, KotS gave out more in art and coins than it was supposed to according to the DMG, but it gave out vastly inferior magic items. And the extra gp value in coins/art was not enough to balance out the deficiency in magic items.

Heh, I hope that wasn't confusing. But I was trying to compile it as quickly as I could, I've got errands to run. Bottom line, KotS gave out more in art and coins than it was supposed to according to the DMG, but it gave out vastly inferior magic items. And the extra gp value in coins/art was not enough to balance out the deficiency in magic items.

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Parcels are just guidelines. I would be shocked if any designer followed them religiously.

Jack99 said:

Parcels are just guidelines. I would be shocked if any designer followed them religiously.

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Well, notice that I did the comparison with the overall treasure value that should be given over the course of a level, not with parcels. I have a feeling you just skimmed my post and missed the meat of my analysis. I'm not saying they didn't give out proper parcels. I'm showing that they did not give out the amount of treasure that is supposed to be gained during those levels as written in the DMG. Are you saying that they're not going to pay attention to that? Because if they don't then there are going to be issues with game balance as I pointed out. KotS does not give out powerful enough magic items per RAW. And it does not give out enough extra gold to make up for it so characters can later buy or create their own.

Okay, fine, every DM is going to play the game differently and want a different level of magic in their campaign. But having a set amount of magic power is built into the system supposedly. So, if you are giving out less treasure than you are supposed to according the rules you should at least be aware that you are doing so in order to adjust other things as necessary. I would expect a WotC published product to follow their own rules. The rules themselves mention how you can give players set bonuses to make up for magic items in a low magic campaign. If I hadn't noticed that the treasure in KotS seemed underpowered then my PCs may have run into problems when I started designing encounters for them after KotS.

Also, I'm not talking about a small difference. Of course every designer isn't going to follow the treasure recommendations in the DMG exactly. But over 2000gp under where they should be for a 4th level party is going to hurt them. Especially when they have more treasure than they should tied up in coins/art that they'll have to convert into magic items to increase their power. So the deficit is really greater than 2000gp in my mind when considering opportunity costs and the like.

silentounce said:

Are you saying that they're not going to pay attention to that?

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My experience so far has been that WotC adventure designers don't pay attention to what the WotC game designers (who are often one and the same) have written. WotC adventures tend to be incredibly hard (ignoring their carefully crafted encounter design balance rules) and often either skimp on treasure or give out overpowered items (ignoring their carefully crafted wealth by level balance rules). With 3.5, Barrow of the Forgotten King was probably the premier example of WotC adventure designers ignoring WotC game design ...

Jack99 said:

Parcels are just guidelines. I would be shocked if any designer followed them religiously.

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Plus, if your encounters are not all in the level range (I'm looking at you, Irontooth), then your treasure should be a bit better as well.

Cheers, LT.

Lord Tirian said:

Plus, if your encounters are not all in the level range (I'm looking at you, Irontooth), then your treasure should be a bit better as well.

Cheers, LT.

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Well, as far as treasure, that's less of a problem as long as you hand out enough over the course of gaining a level. And because of the xp gain, well, put it this way. In KotS you gain level two after 8 encounters, not the 10 that is listed as base. Granted, that encounter is a problem in and of itself. Not a TPK for my guys, but 40%PK. So, some of that treasure is going to be going to Raise Dead rituals. Maybe that's what you were referring to.

Lord Tirian said:

Plus, if your encounters are not all in the level range (I'm looking at you, Irontooth), then your treasure should be a bit better as well.

Cheers, LT.

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If that were the explanation for the discrepancies, they'd be the exact opposite of what silentounce found.

jeffh said:

If that were the explanation for the discrepancies, they'd be the exact opposite of what silentounce found.

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Oh, crap - I got it backwards. Well, this makes it more aggravating.

Cheers, LT.