Sure strike and careful strike, my house rule.

Kitirat · Jul 21, 2008

Have not had time to read the boards, but last time I was here, these were an issue. in my game I did the following:

As per the PHB (+2 to hit otherwise basic attack without ability modifer to damage) with the following:
Special: The strike criticals on a 18-20.

I have seen people use this in situations where they have limited chance of hitting (high AC creatures, lots of cover and concealment, etc), and even had a human ranger take it and use it.

Works well and simple, simple fix.

See ya,
Ken

Plane Sailing · Jul 21, 2008

I have to say this seems grossly overpowered in 4e terms. Are the feats which give a 19-20 crit range with a particular type of weapon not Epic feats? Yet you would happily give a better effect to every 1st level noob with any weapon he cares to use?

To my mind a better and simpler fix is to make it a straight +4 to hit (instead of a +2 to hit). This is a significant enough bonus that it is worth taking the option.

Kitirat · Jul 21, 2008

Plane Sailing said:
I have to say this seems grossly overpowered in 4e terms. Are the feats which give a 19-20 crit range with a particular type of weapon not Epic feats? Yet you would happily give a better effect to every 1st level noob with any weapon he cares to use?

To my mind a better and simpler fix is to make it a straight +4 to hit (instead of a +2 to hit). This is a significant enough bonus that it is worth taking the option.

Power is relative. If most people would still not take the power, then its likely not too powerful. Statistically, twin stirke is STILL better for total damage and for chance to hit and totally annilates a +4, which would never be used. You need to provide utility since twin strike can not be matched for raw damage and too hit potiential.

As for the feats, they allow a 19-20 on ANY attack with the weapon, while this only allows a single, basic attack minus str/dex damage to have the potential to do maximum with no additional effects.

So yes, I think it is fair and so far in games people have liked it but it has not been a glowing power point like twin stirke, divine glow, flaming sphere and the "set up" warlord and cleric at-wills have been.

Destil · Jul 23, 2008

Plane Sailing said:
I have to say this seems grossly overpowered in 4e terms. Are the feats which give a 19-20 crit range with a particular type of weapon not Epic feats? Yet you would happily give a better effect to every 1st level noob with any weapon he cares to use?

To my mind a better and simpler fix is to make it a straight +4 to hit (instead of a +2 to hit). This is a significant enough bonus that it is worth taking the option.

But, Plane, it's not. Statistically speaking. Twin Strike is still better at +4.

I like +Wis damage, ignores cover and concealment, myself... though it's still a hard sell.

HazardCatcher · Jul 25, 2008

I have yet to see this as a suggestion for fixing these powers and I think it is a good one. The flavor is kept, heck probably accentuated and you don't even have to change the name. This is also a lot more interesting than keeping the +modifier damage or changing the hit bonus to +4.

This also makes weapons with cool critical hit effects or damage more interesting. It is also however the big danger, if you take a feat that activates when you make a critical hit then this could be used to more than double the chance of activating it.

My math fu is not strong enough to really work the balance of this out. Is there anyone out there who could? It seems worth looking into.

The_Spider · Jul 25, 2008

How is this?

Careful Attack (Ranger Attack 1)
As Careful Attack page 105, except as below
Attack: Dexterity +2 vs AC (melee) or Dexterity +2 vs AC (ranged)
Special: The Strike does an extra (1W) on a critical hit.

erik_the_guy · Jul 25, 2008

This is a decent fix and I think 18-20 crit is balanced, because it is on a low damage attack. The 19-20 crits for paragon tier feats are obviously meant for attacks that have like 5[W].
Other fixes I have seen for sure strike are
+2 to hit, but the weapon still retains STR mod to damage
+4 to hit, no STR mod to damage (mentioned in this forum).

DLichen · Jul 25, 2008

The best fix in my opinion:

Sure Strike

+2 v Fort

[w] damage
2[w] at epic

Careful Attack

+2 v Reflex
[w] damage
2[w] at epic

I don't like +2 to hit + str mod damage because it's too close to a strictly better basic attack (not that a lot of at-wills aren't strictly better basic attacks, but I prefer to keep that number as low as possible)

And I would not compare anything to twinstrike for balance - the thing is better than some encounter powers with the appropriate gear, it's just that good at dealing damage and hitting, it's probably best to modify sure/careful to their own niche.

Plane Sailing · Jul 25, 2008

erik_the_guy said:
This is a decent fix and I think 18-20 crit is balanced, because it is on a low damage attack. The 19-20 crits for paragon tier feats are obviously meant for attacks that have like 5[W].

If someone had this power in their campaign I bet they would see a sudden preponderance of high-crit weapons. Triple the chance of doing +1d12/2d12/3d12 damage depending upon tier? Who would pass that up?

Kitirat · Jul 25, 2008

Plane Sailing said:
If someone had this power in their campaign I bet they would see a sudden preponderance of high-crit weapons. Triple the chance of doing +1d12/2d12/3d12 damage depending upon tier? Who would pass that up?

Actually my friend did a statistical analysis of the power as written with the 18-20 critical. I'm going to see if I can get it from him.

In general, on average damage over time, even with high crit weapons, this fix is only slightly better than reaping strike at low relative (to level) ACs and at high relative AC reaping becomes better until critical only ACs (i.e. when it would require higher than a 20 to hit the monster) at which point it again becomes more powerful (as is obvious). He is doing a comparison where he factors in the distrubution of ACs as a function of level of monsters but that is extremely time consuming and will likely not be completed before this thread is long abandoned.

In otherwords:
Reaping strike is better against high AC targets, Surestrike (with critical) better against low AC targets and extremely high end AC targets.

The average damage of these two powers is similar overtime (with sure strike slightly higher for single handed and high crit weapons and reaping better for two-handed (including the battle axe).

Thus IMO, it is an extremely balanced solution.

See ya,
Ken

Sure strike and careful strike, my house rule.

Kitirat

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