True Dragons +2 +1 +1 +1 +1?

I've noticed that True Dragons at +2 +1 +1 +1 +1 are physically very, very weak.

Or are size category increases not included in this?

Do you add +10 Str, -2 Dex, and +4 Con at each size increase?

If you don't then you end up with a True Dragon of 8 HD having Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12

If you do, then you end up with a True Dragon of 8 HD having a Str 32, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12.

But this doesn't mesh with incremental changes.

Or...

Do you add the size modifiers like so...

3HD Dragon (Large) Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
6HD Dragon (Large) Str 24, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13
9HD Dragon (Huge) Str 36, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
12HD Dragon (Huge) Str 38, Dex 10, Con 23, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 15
15HD Dragon (Huge) Str 40, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16
18HD Dragon (Gargantuan) Str 52, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 17

???

The reason I'm asking is because I'm trying to stat up a unique dragon.

Hi dante mate!

I fail to see the confusion here...its not rocket science.

You add the ability score bonuses every Age Category.

You get +6 points to play with, divided up anyway you want, with +2 Str, +1 to all other scores except dexterity being the most obvious method.

Therefore over 11 age category increases the dragon would gain +22 Str, +11 to all other scores except dexterity.

That's precisely my problem. Their Strength and Constitution scores end up being WAY too low to make any sense for their size category.

And if your divert mental ability bonuses, then you end up with really stupid dragons.

As stands a standard dragon would end up with...

3HD (Medium) Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
6HD (Large) Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13
9HD (Huge) Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14

Even after 11 age categories you end up with...

36HD (Colossal) Str 34, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 23, Wis 23, Cha 23

Which does not match up with their Size Categories at all. Completely breaking away from your rules about Minimum Strength for certain size categories.

A 36 HD Dragon should have a Strength of at least 40, not 34, and a Constitution of at least 26, not 23.

Even if you took points out of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, you would be barely scraping by and at earlier age categories the Dragon would not have very good Strength and Constitution scores in comparison to monsters of equivalent size.

In fact at earlier age categories they couldn't even reach the minimum Strength and Constitution by removing points from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

A true dragon's size categories rise quickly in the early stages and don't mesh at all the +2 +1 +1 +1 theme.

I would think +18, +12, then +6 would be even better since it would grant the true dragon the average increase in mental capacity and physical capacity that you intended.

Example:
+18 Points (+10, +5, +1, +1, +1)
3HD (Medium) Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
6HD (Large) Str 22, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13
9HD (Huge) Str 32, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
+9 Points (+4, +2, +1, +1, +1)
12HD (Huge) Str 38, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 15
15HD (Huge) Str 42, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16
18HD (Gargantuan) Str 46, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 17
+6 Points (+2, +1, +1, +1, +1)
21HD (Gargantuan) Str 48, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18
24HD (Gargantuan) Str 50, Dex 10, Con 30, Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 19
27HD (Gargantuan) Str 52, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
30HD (Gargantuan) Str 54, Dex 10, Con 32, Int 21, Wis 21, Cha 21
33HD (Colossal) Str 56, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 22
36HD (Colossal) Str 58, Dex 10, Con 34, Int 23, Wis 23, Cha 23
ect...

As you can see this would cover all discrepancies. As it is I'm already going to be house ruling it since a mere +6 contradicts all your rules on Size Categories.

True Dragons are the only dragons that do not fit within your design parameters. They are the only ones that need +18 (Age 2-3), +12 (Age 4-6), then +6 (Age 7+).

Hey dante mate!

dante58701 said:

That's precisely my problem. Their Strength and Constitution scores end up being WAY too low to make any sense for their size category.

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By WAY too low you mean by a few points, correct?

And if your divert mental ability bonuses, then you end up with really stupid dragons.

As stands a standard dragon would end up with...

3HD (Medium) Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
6HD (Large) Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13
9HD (Huge) Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14

Even after 11 age categories you end up with...

36HD (Colossal) Str 34, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 23, Wis 23, Cha 23

Which does not match up with their Size Categories at all. Completely breaking away from your rules about Minimum Strength for certain size categories.

Click to expand...

The official dragons don't match my Str/Size categories anyway! So whats the big deal.

A 36 HD Dragon should have a Strength of at least 40, not 34, and a Constitution of at least 26, not 23.

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Of course it should, now whats to stop a 3HD Medium-sized Dragon from having a base 18 strength?

Even if you took points out of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, you would be barely scraping by and at earlier age categories the Dragon would not have very good Strength and Constitution scores in comparison to monsters of equivalent size.

Click to expand...

So give them higher starting scores.

In fact at earlier age categories they couldn't even reach the minimum Strength and Constitution by removing points from Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

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You are converting an existing dragon that doesn't follow my parameters, then when you apply my advancement rules to it wondering why it doesn't advance properly. Do you see the flaw in your thinking.

A true dragon's size categories rise quickly in the early stages and don't mesh at all the +2 +1 +1 +1 theme.

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Of course they don't. But they probably should. But its just a million times too much work to rework the core dragons.

I would think +18, +12, then +6 would be even better since it would grant the true dragon the average increase in mental capacity and physical capacity that you intended.

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You think wrong.

Example:
+18 Points (+10, +5, +1, +1, +1)
3HD (Medium) Str 12, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
6HD (Large) Str 22, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 13
9HD (Huge) Str 32, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
+9 Points (+4, +2, +1, +1, +1)
12HD (Huge) Str 38, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 15
15HD (Huge) Str 42, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16
18HD (Gargantuan) Str 46, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 17
+6 Points (+2, +1, +1, +1, +1)
21HD (Gargantuan) Str 48, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18
24HD (Gargantuan) Str 50, Dex 10, Con 30, Int 19, Wis 19, Cha 19
27HD (Gargantuan) Str 52, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20
30HD (Gargantuan) Str 54, Dex 10, Con 32, Int 21, Wis 21, Cha 21
33HD (Colossal) Str 56, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 22
36HD (Colossal) Str 58, Dex 10, Con 34, Int 23, Wis 23, Cha 23
ect...

As you can see this would cover all discrepancies.

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What this does is give utterly ridiculous leaps of strength and to a lesser extent constitution. It creates far more discrepancies than it covers.

As it is I'm already going to be house ruling it since a mere +6 contradicts all your rules on Size Categories.

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The official dragons ALREADY contradict the size rules. 5 HD TINY Copper Dragons - for goodness sake. 8 HD MEDIUM Gold Dragons.

True Dragons are the only dragons that do not fit within your design parameters. They are the only ones that need +18 (Age 2-3), +12 (Age 4-6), then +6 (Age 7+).

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The only thing that needs fixed are the dragon sizes.

eg. An 8 HD Gold Dragon is a Huge creature. That means a starting strength score of 31-40 (more likely 31). Which means when we advance it by my recommended 22 points at Great Wyrm we would get Str 53.

Ahhh, Ok, I get it now. Thanks Krusty! =^.^=

I was under the assumption that True Dragons had to start off with a base Strength of 12.