[OOC] Secret War

Walking Dad · Aug 16, 2008

Added language. No problem with waiting for my regional bonus

The Digger · Aug 16, 2008

Second language for the Digger would be Chondathan - local ;anguage, correct?

Chauzu · Aug 17, 2008

Dang... I guess there isn't a rogue's gallery section anymore. :erm:

Well anyways, I'll get the game started sometime this coming week - it shouldn't take too much longer for you guys to finish up your characters.

Leif · Aug 17, 2008

The former "Plots, Places and Rogues" is now just called the "Plots and Places" forum, but all the characters are still posted there.

Chauzu · Aug 17, 2008

Leif said:
The former "Plots, Places and Rogues" is now just called the "Plots and Places" forum, but all the characters are still posted there.

Ah, I see.

In that case...

Rogue Gallery thread is up! Once you feel you have your characters complete, post them in there! When I see all six players' characters in there I'll begin the game.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4429860#post4429860

Graf · Aug 18, 2008

irrelevant now...

Leif · Aug 18, 2008

IC thread is not up yet, is it? Can you post a link to it here when it is started?

Chauzu · Aug 18, 2008

Graf: 15, 15, 12, 11, 10, 10.

Graf · Aug 18, 2008

Thank you sir.
m(__)m

Redclaw · Aug 18, 2008

Graf said:
[sblock=redclaw]I confess to hoping from a response to you just so I could thank you for "preparing me" for low attribute powers.

[sblock=Math blather you've heard before]As I've mentioned before (maybe using different language) 4e is built assuming at least +4 to hit at first level, usually a +5 (or +6~8/+7~9 with weapons). It's default. That's why all the alchemy stuff starts out at +4 vs ref/most 1st level minions have +4 to hit, etc. The game starts at +4

It's not really a question of 1-time-in-20 because of how probability works.

Most monsters have defenses around 14~16 at 1st level. (They may have a weaker defense floating around, but most characters basically can only target one or two defenses so you won't be able to get at that most of the time.) Adding things like cover, concealment, marking, negative conditions, etc and you're shooting for 18s and 20s.

Someone with a +2 is going to hit an 18 20% of the time. Someone with a +5 is going to hit 40%. That's twice times as frequently.
(adding in things like lower +s to damage (from the lowered prime attributed) it's like being permanently weakened, and then some).

It's just the probabilities. The game is constructed so that you hit people in optimal situations about 50-70%% of the time, and sub optimal situations about 40%~30% of the times. That's the "fun spot" that WotC was targeting.
Forcing once character off that curve and down to 15% would normally transform them into comic relief. They can tag along and rp but that's it.

Conveniently the artificer is the first class where they're playing around with "even when you miss you get to do something". So I'm not objecting in this case, but I stand by the general point I made in your game that 4e DnD is constructed to be fun for people who have a +4~+5 to hit vs non-AC defenses (at 1st level).

[/sblock]
I do mean it about my appreciation though. With my new mindset I am planning on having a lot of fun.

[/sblock]

[sblock=Graf] I'm glad you were expecting my response. I was worried that you'd take it the wrong way.

[sblock=my math]You completely confused me by jumping from my +2 vs. +3 attribute bonus argument to comparing a +2 to a +5, well beyond the issue at hand. Thromb has a 15 Int, giving you a +2 attribute bonus. When you use an intelligence based attack power with the weapon key word, you have a +4 or +5 to hit AC. My paladin Rangok has a 17 cha, giving him a +3 attribute bonus. When he uses a cha based attack power, he attacks with a +5 to hit. If we're attacking an AC 18 creature, Thromb hits on a 14-20, 35% of the time. Rangok hits on an 13-20, 40% of the time. The only time Rangok hits and Thromb misses is on a natural 13. I don't see that at as a major disadvantage.

If you're looking at non-weapon attacks, you're talking about other defenses, and from what I've seen so far most first level creatures have defenses down around 11-14 (look at the low-level kobolds for an example). In that case, your +2 bonus is hitting 35-60% of the time. That looks like the sweet spot you described.[/sblock]

To escape the math, I would say that there's a good chance Chauzu is going to be aware of this difference and act accordingly. If it were my game, I'd likely make sure that the first magic item was clearly ear-marked for the artificer, for example.

Most importantly, as I said, I understand your frustration. I just worry that you're so focused on it that you'll only get more frustrated and fatalistic about your character. My point is that he's far from useless. He probably shouldn't be using AC attacks against heavily armored foes, but there should be other targets.

Are you still up for playing Mirna, by the way? Your action is the last one I'm waiting on. [/sblock]