Character Generation - Regional Benefits

covaithe said:

Well, yes, that was intended to be a bit provocative. But you said that if a DM doesn't want streetwise checks to come up, don't give streetwise checks. What happens when a player says "I leave the party and spend the next four hours talking with innkeepers, stableboys, beggars, ladies of ill repute, and my contacts in the thieves' guild, asking if anyone has seen a man with seven fingers and two eye patches with smiley faces on them. I roll a 28." As a DM, you'd better have a damn good reason not to give him some information, assuming the guy with the eye patches has been in town. If the eyepatch guy has a hat of disguise, fine... but that hat had better come up in the treasure list later. If you just say "nobody knows anything about him" without thinking about it because you don't want regional benefits to come into play, well, that's pretty darn close to railroading in my book.

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I'm fighting hard to resist the feeling you're being deliberately obtuse.

IT ONLY WORKS IN BACARTE!!!! BACARTE!!!! BACARTE!!!!!111!!!1111!!!!!
IT'S NOT ANY STREETWISE!!!!

Can we argue about what I've written instead of some hellish implementation you've cooked up to try to make some point (the point of which I'm not getting at all incidentally)?

We are getting a bit far afield from the details of the proposal. I'm reacting to one line that was something of an aside:

Don't want the Bacarte power to matter? Don't give them streetwise checks in Bacarte.

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I was trying to illustrate that DMs don't have quite that much control over what skill checks are made. To keep the Bacarte power from mattering, a DM has to keep the players out of Bacarte entirely. This is irrespective of what the actual Bacarte power is. I confess I have a bad habit of getting distracted arguing about meta-issues. In this instance, I should probably drop it.

Sure but lets just get it clean because if you feel this way then maybe other people do.

I find it so weird that you think it's a permanent plus four to all streetwise rolls.

Streetwise is a local skill. You use it to find out about local stuff. That's what the skill does; the idea that it's magically transferable is silly. I mean... a streetwise roll in Bacarte tells you about Bacarte stuff.... not about Daunton or Hzaka or anywhere else.

So lets say that someone hears something on the streets of Daunton... rumors of a new cult and want to learn more. And this bright bulb decides to go to Bacarte because the get a +4.

The DM can say... "there's no cult in Bacarte" so he rolls for the pcs and says "you don't find anything" (or you find out about another unrelated cult).
Of course, he could also have the cult be present in Bacarte too if he likes. Whatever. The point is that, while the PC can do whatever they like AND the DM decides what impact it has....

[d]--[/d]

I did think of this last night.

I'm happy to turn both the Daunton and Bacarte powers into "any time you roll less than a 10 on a streetwise check in Bacarte (or a knowledge check in Daunton) you may treat your roll as a 10".
Maybe with a limit like you must spend 4 hours researching/investigating to use the 10 result. (So flub a knowledge check and it's off to the library to get that 10). Ditto streetwise.

So they get the minimum check result. Less abusive* but still sorta cool (you're never painfully ignorant or out of the loop).

[sblock=*]I can not believe we're having a conversation about Streetwise being "abusive" but anyway....[/sblock]

I don't think covaithe thinks it's +4 to all Streetwise checks. I think we all get that it's +4 to Streetwise checks while in Bacarte. And what I think is covaithe's issue, and I can see his point, that if a DM never takes the adventure to Bacarte, then that bonus is not helpful. If the DM intentionally conspires to keep the characters out of Bacarte to avoid the bonus coming up, it's mildly railroading.

I would compare it to a 3.x ranger who took giants as a favored enemy, and then the DM never uses giants. Yeah, technically you still have the feature, but it ain't doing you much good.

That's a feature.

It matches with all the other more-or-less useless unless the DM wants to include it powers.

My design goal continues to not be "awesome powers" but "rp stuff that is balanced and doesn't freak DMs out".

I think the Bacarte power is fine as is. It was the Daunton power that I was concerned about, but that's been fixed. I wouldn't mind seeing the Valley of Jade situational power be something else, since +5 to saves vs (obscure monster that only occurs in obscure location) seems unlikely to come up with the same frequency as the others, but if we're tired of talking about it, we can leave it be.

This thread needs a bump, since it's one of the things holding up opening character submissions.

Nobody seems to have complained too much recently about the benefits for Daunton, Bacarte, V. of Bone, and K. of Jade. (Though I do remember seeing some discussion of KoJ in another thread, though I can't remember where.) Mykonos' Sanctuary and Imperium have gotten benefits in the wiki, but I don't think they've been mentioned here. My personal opinion is that those are fine in terms of balance, but the MK's Sanctuary bluff bonus seems a bit thematically off.

I think the most important question is what to do when a character is submitted whose backstory doesn't fit well with any of the regions we've defined benefits for. If nothing else, people are going to come up with new regions as play continues, e.g. Laughing Gallows. This, to me, is a show-stopper. If we can't come up with a good way to handle this, pretty quickly, I'm going to reluctantly urge that we let regional benefits slide in favor of being able to open character creation soon.

Cov,

I haven't had proper computer access for a while, but I assure you that I have been thinking about it. Give me a half hour or so.

I realize you're trying to play devils advocate but I can't see the "show stopper".
People who aren't from regions aren't from regions. They don't get regional benefits. That's precisely why they're so minor in power.

With the input of many worthies I have redone the regional benefits.
Again they're not supposed to be excessively powerful, since many characters will not come from one of the regions we've defined. If we want to had more regions (I'm done for now, but if others have ideas...) now's the time.

To keep people from having to click through I've copied all the benefits below.

==== Daunton: Regional Benefit ====
Characters from Daunton receive a +2 on monster knowledge checks, reflecting their exposure to the diverse races that populate the city. When on Daunton they can gain access to the city library allow giving them to reroll a failed knowledge check at +2 once per day (a given roll can only be rerolled once). It generally requires 4 hours of research at the Daunton Library to reroll a check.
Characters who spend more than 4 hours seeking an answer to a specific question in a day find that they have trouble finding the proper books, are easily distracted by small sounds, and sometimes even fall asleep -- as if the library itself were resisting them. Whether this reflects some sort of defensive measure, a curse by the godless of knowledge or something else entirely has never been proven.


==== Bacarte: Regional Benefit ====
Characters from Bacarte receive a +1 on perception checks, reflecting an innate keenness honed on the dangerous, misty streets of the isle. When on Bacarte they also receive a +4 bonus to Streetwise checks, reflecting the natural relationships they've built up with normally suspicious folk who dwell on the island and if they roll lower than a 10 they may substitute a 10 instead (reflecting their ability to get access to basic information).

NOTE: The streets of Bacarte are full of information, but most of it about Bacarte, the merchants and the common underworld of Daunton/Bacarte (which doesn't include everything criminal on Daunton, just the segments that cross-pollinate with the misty isle). Pirates and others never let the truth get in the way of a good story and information on areas outside of Bacarte can be wildly inaccurate.


==== Valley of Bone: Regional Benefit ====
+1 endurance checks, reflecting their resilience; The combination of respect and confidence they have in dealing with the unliving can be a potent tool... .they also receive a +2 bonus to monster knowledge checks involving undead and a +2 to diplomacy checks involving undead that they have correctly identified. These bonuses rise to +4 when dealing with undead that originate from the valley of bone (disposed as they are to interactions with mortals, they are more tolerant living who display the proper respect, often giving them an opportunity to speak when more typical undead would simply attack.)


==== Kingdom of Jade: Regional Benefit ====
+1 on insight checks; individuals from the restrained culture of the Kingdom show very little emotion; a social response to fear that powerful emotions open the way to corruption by the shadow. While this bottling up of emotion doesn't seem to actually be particularly effective in resisting corruption non-members of their culture often find them excruciatingly difficult to read in social situations. They receive +2 on ''social'' bluff checks against individuals who are not from their region*.

(*)For the avoidance of doubt we reiterate that this bonus only applies to social situations. Uses of the bluff skill to Gain Combat Advantage or Create a Diversion to Hide (phb 183) '''do not''' receive the bonus.

==== Mykonos' Sanctuary: Regional Benefit ====

+1 endurance checks, reflecting the toughness they developed working as slaves in the mines over their year of torment; the constant psychic bombardments suffered by the survivors has also granted them a degree of resilience, in times of extreme exertion they can sometimes shake off debilitating mental effects. When a player character from Mykonos' Sanctuary spends an action point they may immediately make one save against a any effect with the psychic keyword that a save could end.


==== The Imperium: Regional Benefit ====

+2 diplomacy checks, oratory is an artform in the Imperium (or at least an obsession); even the most inept Imperium citizen can turn a phrase better than most.

I like those changes. Valley of Jade and Mykonos' sanctuary both work much better for me.

I'm not comfortable with no benefit at all for characters who aren't from one of the specified regions. How about this instead:

• If you build a character that is not from one of these regions, you may take as your regional benefit +1 to the skill of your choice.
• As time passes, benefits for new regions may be proposed and voted on. If a benefit is accepted for your region, when you next level up you may choose either to keep the +1 to the skill of your choice, or to take the new regional benefit instead.

+1 to the skill of your choice is less powerful, but more flexible, than the benefits for the listed regions. If it seems too powerful still, such that it would encourage many players to choose to come from outside the main regions, we can limit it by restricting the choice to a subset of skills. Thoughts?