Character Generation - Regional Benefits

If we're going to start giving out "powerups" to everybody then...

Hmm. I think we need to rethink the system. As I said originally (and repeatedly) the point of the system is that "if you're from a region you get a minor benefit; if not you get nothing".

I wasn't aware that you wanted to give out powers to everybody....
I wish you'd let me know that you wanted to do things differently before I spent all this effort developing (and re-developing and re-developing and re-developing) the current system)
That really throws a kink in things...

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A +1 to a skill of your choice is a really bad choice. Would you rather have +1 to your best skill (because that's what people will take) or +2 to "monster knowledge checks" (which most characters will never roll, and many players probably don't even know about)
(I know you like it Cov, and personally I'd like to see it used more, but right now it's never used....)

And it's totally flavorless. There's no roleplaying element. I personally don't think we should reward people for not roleplaying with extra goodies.

I built the system so someone could say "+2 to knowledge checks" or "+1 to endurance", don't care....

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It seems like we're just on a completely different page with this.
Which is OK, but I wish we'd known about it sooner, because it's going to be a lot of work to try to develop a new system of staged power-ups for everyone.

I said, about a dozen times, that this was supposed to be a minor bonus for people from regions and that non-region characters wouldn't get anything. So I guess I thought people were reading and following along...
(kinda a shame.... why write it all out if nobody cares....)

Especially now that (I thought) we were about to start to play.

Huh. I admit it never really crossed my mind that you would consider giving extra bonuses, even small ones, to only some of the characters. I admit that I'm not the best in the world at addressing balance issues, but surely the first principle of balance is that you don't give extras to one character without giving extras to other characters, too? Sorry, I don't buy the argument that these bonuses are insignificant enough to ignore.

Yes, I think the "+1 to a skill of your choice" is flavorless and will inevitably translate to "+1 to your highest skill", but I'm not sure what else to do. Leaving characters with nothing who originate from outside the regions with defined benefits... well, it just feels like we're punishing creativity.

But you're right that time's a-wasting, and while this isn't holding up character creation yet, it will be before long. I'd like to hear some other opinions on this, too.

edit: Your wish is my command.

Contents deleted.

For balance reasons, I'd prefer not to have some folks get a bonus and some not.

How about this - when a player proposes a character from a new region, they also must submit the region separately for approval. This includes both a descriptive write-up of the region on the wiki and a proposed regional benefit.

Yes, this opens up the possibility of someone twinking a regional benefit to be a just perfect (if small) bonus for their PC. But 1) that's why judges will review it, and 2) if a player is willing to do the region write-up I've mentioned, I don't really mind giving them a +1 to their favorite skill. They've contributed to the world in the process.

We are crafting this setting so people could create new lands, after all, and this seems like a good way to encourage that while still keeping everyone on equal footing. Why should Barcarte be more special than the mystic eastern island of Zaofan that someone else who isn't even here yet creates after PHB3 (featuring the Ki power source! ... probably) is released?

I've stayed out of the discussion for the most part, but would like to offer my opinion. Personally I think that Living Worlds like this one thrive on everyone participating in the world creation. We are setting up a wonderful framework that allows both DMs and Players to add to it very very easily which I think is a huge strength of the setting. But I think that giving benefits to only those that play in the sandbox we've already created does not encourage people to make new places up for their characters.

At first I really liked Covaithe's suggestion of a tiny bonus to characters from a different region than we've defined or Garyh's suggestion that we encourage that world growth by having players submit region proposals attached to their desired benefit. But I'm leaning more towards Graf's argument that that is just a system of twinking that is unneccessary. So I was going to suggest scrapping the idea of region benefits all together.

But I have an alternative suggestion, rather than giving out free regional benefits a-la-FR why not set up these region benefits as feats taken at first level? I'd suggest beefing them up a little bit so that they are equivalent in balance to existing feats (perhaps adding training in a particular skill or a larger skill bonus for example). That way we are encouraging people to create characters in our developed regions but also not penalizing those who create characters from their own regions.

I don't mind turning the benefits into optional feats if they're powered up some. Means going back to the drawing board, though.

Also, I don't see any reason my "create a region, create the regional benefits" approach wouldn't work if that benefit is now an optional feat. I love the content we've developed, but it still rubs me the wrong way that if you don't come from content we've included at the start, you're out of luck on having a regional benefit option. Part fo the point of a living world like this is to let people add to the world, after all.

On balance I like gary's suggestion.
1. Encourage people to select a region.
2. Or make their own.
3. Or hold the right to "declare their region" later

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I don't mind having optional feats but I feel there will only be two sorts of feats:
A. Broken feats that everybody takes
B. Balanced feats that virtually nobody takes*

I mean... can we build a single feat would be attractive to anyone from Daunton? Can we do it for all the regions? Can we do it without being umbalanced? Can we do it without playtesting? Can we do it in a month? Two months?

So I think that optional feats are something we might want to consider for later but not have at launch.

I like garyh's suggestion, too, but this:

Graf said:

3. Or hold the right to "declare their region" later

Click to expand...

really interests me. One of the big problems with regional benefits has always been that they need to be in place and established when the first characters are created, and any changes after that would tend to be perceived as either nerfs to existing characters, or "his is better than mine now" or whatever. That's why this discussion is blocking character creation. But if we build in a mechanism for people to change their region, then a lot of the pressure comes off. It's easier to adjust regional benefits later, either to add new ones or to nerf/improve existing ones, knowing that we won't be permanently screwing anyone's character.

Thematically, "changing your region" sounds a bit... awful, but I think if it were rephrased slightly, it would suck less, flavor-wise. Consider, instead, if each region had a dominant philosophy, that, when understood and practiced, granted mechanical benefits. E.g. in the Valley of Bone, life is hard and people understand that not every little bruise or scratch is something to get upset over; people know that death is a part of life and that to hate the undead is to deny part of themselves. Thus, +1 endurance and bonuses to diplomacy against the undead. In Daunton, there is a culture of knowledge, where people accumulate and trade bits of monster trivia for fun, and of there's the library, where, with some training and practice that all dauntonians acquire over time, you can find answers to nearly any question. Hence, +2 to monster knowledge checks and the occasional knowledge check reroll.

Now that the benefits derive from a philosophy rather than the accident of where you grew up, it's a lot easier to see how it could change. We could offer a sprinkling of NPCs around the world, that would (possibly for a small fee) instruct you in the teachings of their homeland. The training would take months (game time, of course), so you couldn't just change on a whim: "You've got an angry ghost, eh? Let me just nip over to Throm Thunderpants and bone up, haha, on undead philosophy, and I'll be right with you." No. Mechanically, you'd have to get permission from a judge to change your regional philosophy between adventures. Obviously you can only have one philosophy "active" at a given time.

Now, when a character gets created from a new region, they can either propose their region along with its philosophy as garyh described, or remain uncommitted (with no mechanical benefit), and can either train to one of the other region's philosophies, or retain the option to propose a philosophy for their own region later.

I realize this is a big change to the idea, and that it's coming at the 11th hour, and that it feels (to me, at least) very MMORPG-ish, but I think this would go a long way towards alleviating any possible balance issues that we might be introducing, and provide a good mechanism for future change.

What do you guys think?

I like that idea.