Forked Thread: Voting




+ Log in or register to post
Results 1 to 6 of 6
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Acolyte (Lvl 2)

    Graf's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    undisclosed
    Posts
    3,994
    Blog Entries
    21

    Ignore Graf

    Forked Thread: Voting

    Forked from: If/how to impliment OOC points

    Quote Originally Posted by covaithe
    Actually, I was thinking of a series of separate polls in different threads. Or possibly not even polls; have you looked at how LEW does proposal voting? People talk it over until they're ready to vote, then just include a YES or NO in their post. That way, they can change their votes if further discussion changes their mind. The process continues until one of the pass or fail conditions is met, or people lose interest, if none of the end conditions is met.

    With a single-digit number of judges and yes/no proposals, that works pretty well. If the question is open to everyone and the options are multiple, it might be uglier. But I really like the idea of being able to change your mind. It makes interpreting the results much easier.

    But the method of voting isn't directly relevant; my main point is that I think they should all be voted on independently. How we accomplish that is less important.
    Re: Yes/No

    My first though was "great idea" change votes...

    ...but...

    ...we already allow people to do that.
    I've changed my vote.
    We've always honored people's posts about changing their vote.

    The current system has gotten us this far, it's simple and easy to understand.

    Changing it now runs the risk of looking like we didn''t let people change votes before... which isn't true.

    Plus making people type out their choices would probably depress turnout...
    Interested in playing 4th edition online? The Living 4th EnWorld Campaign is open! [character creation wiki forum]
    I am in an interesting period of my life; I will post in games that I run three times a week (M,W,F); and try to maintain obligations in existing games.
    ...disquieting...
    There was no end to his patience and endurance. He played day and night, his obsession was somewhat disquieting. It was less as if he were playing to dispel gloom or beguile tedium than as if he were giving himself up to the fangs of gaming devils."
    Kawabata Yasunari - The Master of Go

 

  • #2
    Community Supporter COPPER SUBSCRIBER
    Defender (Lvl 8)

    covaithe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Posts
    4,971

    Ignore covaithe
    We have tried to honor later posts expressing a change of opinion, yes, but if the automated vote count at the top of the thread is inaccurate, why have it? It's just misleading.

    There are two kinds of votes that I have in mind, and I think different rules may be called for for each of them.

    The first are specific proposals, such as proposing that a new player-created feat be added to the list of accepted content. Only judges vote on these. We don't have many of these now (which is good, because we don't have any judges, only facilitators), but once L4W gets going, the vast majority of votes will be this kind.

    The second are votes on important issues that affect the whole community, such as which setting to use. Everyone can vote in these. Right now, we have a lot of them because we're still defining a lot of the fundamentals of the gaming world, but after L4W gets going in earnest, these will trickle down to very few, possibly none.

    More later, real life obligations now.
    My games

    Check out Living 4th Edition, a community-run 4e D&D living world open to all. Now open for character and adventure submissions!

  • #3
    Registered User
    Acolyte (Lvl 2)

    Graf's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    undisclosed
    Posts
    3,994
    Blog Entries
    21

    Ignore Graf
    >We have tried to honor later posts expressing a change of
    >opinion, yes, but if the automated vote count at the top of
    >the thread is inaccurate, why have it? It's just misleading.

    Because people usually get it right?
    Because it's rare for votes to be off by only one or two?
    ----------> So it's not actually misleading.

    Because it's a lot less work for us?
    Because people can casually check and see what's going on (so it's more accessible)?
    Because larger numbers of votes are easily seen at a glance?
    Because we like representing complex things with simple pretty pictures?
    Because we've used it so far and nobody's complained?

    I'm not saying that we have to keep the current system, but it has benefits too.

    Oh, and one more: Because changing it right now would be more work?





    I agree with your assessment of the two types of votes.

    Personally I'm inclined to say that once we start we can vote about voting and see if people want to take the second YES/NO system once those sorts of polls become common (i.e when we start playing).
    Last edited by Graf; Monday, 18th August, 2008 at 07:35 AM.
    Interested in playing 4th edition online? The Living 4th EnWorld Campaign is open! [character creation wiki forum]
    I am in an interesting period of my life; I will post in games that I run three times a week (M,W,F); and try to maintain obligations in existing games.
    ...disquieting...
    There was no end to his patience and endurance. He played day and night, his obsession was somewhat disquieting. It was less as if he were playing to dispel gloom or beguile tedium than as if he were giving himself up to the fangs of gaming devils."
    Kawabata Yasunari - The Master of Go

  • #4
    Community Supporter COPPER SUBSCRIBER
    Defender (Lvl 8)

    covaithe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Posts
    4,971

    Ignore covaithe
    There's no work at all in changing. We simply say that it's different, and that's that.

    It doesn't matter if it's rare for the poll count at the top to be off by only one or two; the fact that it's possible means that in order to know what the state of the poll is, you still have to read the whole thread and count manually.

    And I disagree that people usually get it right and that the count is usually pretty accurate. I've "changed" my vote on every poll so far, though I'm pretty sure the change has failed to be counted at least once or twice. In both the ability score generation poll and the character races poll, the poll count showed a dead heat between two options. It was only on reading the thread and counting manually that a clear consensus emerged. And those are just the ones I remember clearly.

    No, I'm starting to be pretty thoroughly convinced that ENWorld's polling mechanism is not suitable for our votes.
    My games

    Check out Living 4th Edition, a community-run 4e D&D living world open to all. Now open for character and adventure submissions!

  • #5
    Registered User
    Acolyte (Lvl 2)

    Graf's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    undisclosed
    Posts
    3,994
    Blog Entries
    21

    Ignore Graf
    If you were unhappy about previous poll results then you should have brought it up then...

    The fact that you've suddenly seized on this point (and numerous others) when a vote has come up that you're personally against looks a bit ... it just doesn't look very good.

    I think that, despite our position as facilitators, we need to accept that we don't "decide things" (unless it's absolutely impossible to structure a vote).
    We facilitate the decision making process of the community, and if we get a result that we personally don't like? We suck it up.

    I'm all for jawboning a poll (I did my damnest to talk people out of multiple characters at launch) but I -didn't-
    1. Monkey with the poll
    2. Arbitrarily change something

    I realize your hearts in the right place, but it's a terrible precedent to set.






    Why don't we get through the OOC points thing, and then if you still want to change you can write a proposal and we'll have a vote on your new system.
    Interested in playing 4th edition online? The Living 4th EnWorld Campaign is open! [character creation wiki forum]
    I am in an interesting period of my life; I will post in games that I run three times a week (M,W,F); and try to maintain obligations in existing games.
    ...disquieting...
    There was no end to his patience and endurance. He played day and night, his obsession was somewhat disquieting. It was less as if he were playing to dispel gloom or beguile tedium than as if he were giving himself up to the fangs of gaming devils."
    Kawabata Yasunari - The Master of Go

  • #6
    Community Supporter COPPER SUBSCRIBER
    Defender (Lvl 8)

    covaithe's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Posts
    4,971

    Ignore covaithe
    Quote Originally Posted by Graf View Post
    The fact that you've suddenly seized on this point (and numerous others) when a vote has come up that you're personally against looks a bit ... it just doesn't look very good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank Redemption
    D.A.: "You recall Lt. Mincher's testimony? He and his men dragged that river for three days and nary a gun was found. So no comparison can be made between your gun and the bullets taken from the bloodstained corpses of the victims. That's also rather convenient, isn't it, Mr. Dufresne?"

    ANDY: "Since I am innocent of this crime, sir, I find it decidedly inconvenient the gun was never found."
    This is a point that has occurred to me, yes. I'm not sure how best to handle it. Ooc points and voting rules are two of the main topics left to be decided before we can really kick this thing into gear. I feel pretty strongly that both are important topics to get right. The fact that we're running out of other things to finish working on for L4W's startup means, unfortunately, that they're being discussed at the same time. And, it so happens, my suggestions regarding voting rules might, if adopted, have an impact on the ooc points outcome. As it stands last time I looked in the OOC Points poll, there were three votes for awarding points to judges, and two people who voiced strong objections in comments. Which could be construed as three yes votes and two no votes, which, if I had my way PURELY ABOUT VOTING RULES and had never once opened my mouth about ooc points, would not pass.

    As Andy Dufresne says, I find this decidedly inconvenient. It puts me in an awkward position. I've pushed as hard as I'm comfortable doing against ooc points in general and for judges in particular; everyone has heard what I have to say and will make up their minds as they see fit. Unless something new comes up, I'm done with the topic and I'll live with the outcome. But I'd really like the outcome to be clear and unambiguous, and not depend on whose interpretation of the poll results gets accepted. I'm desperately afraid that it won't be clear, and that I'll be faced with a choice between making a fuss that, as you say, wouldn't look very good, or swallowing my process objections along with my game-design reservations to preserve a semblance of unity, creating a terrible precedent.

    So, yeah. There is a synergy, or conflict of interest if you prefer to call it that, between my positions on these two issues. What do you suggest that I do about it? I can't just keep quiet on the issue of voting rules; honestly that's far more important to me than ooc points. Nor can I really keep quiet on the subject of ooc points. I have opinions on the subject that I believe are justified by real concerns, and I would be doing less than my best for L4W's chances if I didn't do my best to express those opinions.


    Bottom line: In addition to the many other things I want, such as total recall, the power of flight, no ooc points, more free time, and the phone number of that girl with the red hair that I knew in school, I also want voting results to be clear and decisive. Poll results require interpretation. So I think we shouldn't use polls.
    My games

    Check out Living 4th Edition, a community-run 4e D&D living world open to all. Now open for character and adventure submissions!

  • + Log in or register to post

    Similar Threads

    1. Forked Thread: Why the beer hate? (Forked Thread: What are the no-goes...)
      By Nikosandros in forum RPGs & Tabletop Gaming Discussion
      Replies: 13
      Last Post: Friday, 10th July, 2009, 01:58 AM
    2. Free RPG Day Forked Thread: Chicago Gameday XXIII Planning Thread
      By thalmin in forum RPGs & Tabletop Gaming Discussion
      Replies: 8
      Last Post: Friday, 19th June, 2009, 05:05 AM
    3. Forked Thread: Chicago Gameday XXI - Return to the Slave Pits - PC planning thread
      By Vyvyan Basterd in forum RPGs & Tabletop Gaming Discussion
      Replies: 32
      Last Post: Friday, 7th November, 2008, 02:16 PM
    4. EsoTerrana voting changed to new thread
      By ngenius in forum RPGs & Tabletop Gaming Discussion
      Replies: 7
      Last Post: Monday, 9th February, 2004, 07:30 PM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •