D&D 4E 4e and Star Wars Saga ed...

Imaro · Aug 23, 2008

I remember when SW Saga ed. was being advertised as a preview for 4e. Now I bought the game and thought it was a good game, that actually addressed some of the "issues" I see people bring up in regards to 3.5. My players loved it and it was easier to GM than 3.5...Thus I pre-ordered 4e under the assumption that SW saga was a preview of what I would be getting...

Now that I've gotten, and played, 4e... I can't help but feel something went wrong. The game hasn't excited or thrilled my group, and they in fact have asked me to stop running 4e and to run either a SW Saga game or Changeling the Lost game.

Now the last time I ran SW Saga was a while ago, so I don't remember the intricacies of the system... but I was wondering if anyone can compare the differences between the two systems. Also, how do other people feel about the two systems. Do you prefer SW Saga's system to 4e or 4e's system to SW Saga? Why?

I'm just curious as I haven't seen the two games talked about together much, and I just got the Knights of the Old Republic campaign book (excellent product by the way.) and it's got me kinda hyped to run a Star Wars game.

Gundark · Aug 23, 2008

Imaro said:
I remember when SW Saga ed. was being advertised as a preview for 4e. Now I bought the game and thought it was a good game, that actually addressed some of the "issues" I see people bring up in regards to 3.5. My players loved it and it was easier to GM than 3.5...Thus I pre-ordered 4e under the assumption that SW saga was a preview of what I would be getting...

Now that I've gotten, and played, 4e... I can't help but feel something went wrong. The game hasn't excited or thrilled my group, and they in fact have asked me to stop running 4e and to run either a SW Saga game or Changeling the Lost game.

Now the last time I ran SW Saga was a while ago, so I don't remember the intricacies of the system... but I was wondering if anyone can compare the differences between the two systems. Also, how do other people feel about the two systems. Do you prefer SW Saga's system to 4e or 4e's system to SW Saga? Why?

I'm just curious as I haven't seen the two games talked about together much, and I just got the Knights of the Old Republic campaign book (excellent product by the way.) and it's got me kinda hyped to run a Star Wars game.

While they have similiarities I will agree that they are different games. I don't really think they should really be compared. I mostly DM so I prefer 4e as it's faster to prep for than SWS. However I think they're both great games.

drothgery · Aug 23, 2008

Well, the biggest mechanical difference in SWSE vs 4e is the powers mechanic and how multiclassing works.

In SWSE, you get powers (Force Powers or Starship Manuevers from Starships of the Galaxy) by taking the Force Training feat (for force powers) or the Starship Tactics feat (for staship manuevers). If 4e had worked like this, anyone would be able to take an 'Arcane Talent' feat to be able to use magic, and an 'Arcane Training' feat to learn spells. Whereas in 4e all classes get different categories of powers automatically.

And SWSE multiclassing is pretty much like traditional d20 multiclassing, while 4e uses multiclassing feats. Either approach can work, though traditional d20 multiclassing has some serious problems given D&D classes (because of how the magic system works).

It's a pretty big philosophical difference, though; D&D says there are going to be a lot of classes (even if there are only 8 in PH1), and you probably shouldn't multiclass, while SWSE says you almost certainly are going to multiclass, and should. To some extent, that's traditional; quasi-medieval fantasy games tend to larger numbers of narrowly-drawn classes, and modern/future games tend to be point-based or have small numbers of flexible classes (though there are exceptions, of course).

There are some math cleanups in 4e that I wish had made it to SWSE (single attack progression, fixed hit points, max-damage crits) and a few nifty ideas (minions, skill challenges in concept) and some things that are going to be problematic until the next time they respin the Star Wars RPG (use the force checks vs. defenses are always going to be problematic). But it's closer to that ever-changing ideal RPG system that's in my head than 4e is. And I suspect if the long-rumored '4e Modern' comes out, it will in many ways look more like SWSE than 4e, and should.

Having said that, 4e is almost certainly a better system for playing a D&D-style game, and since in prior editions I've always loved tinkering with new classes, I suspect I will in 4e as well. And a game like SWSE, where no new core classes are coming, ever, doesn't facilitate that.

Remathilis · Aug 23, 2008

I personally think SAGA could benefit from healing surges and the 50/50 save mechanic (esp for powers like Force Choke) but otherwise is a great system.

(Oh, and somehow fixing the force/defense mechanic so that the force doesn't always win at low levels and never win at high levels, but that requires massive surgery).

Nikosandros · Aug 23, 2008

Has anyone actually ported some 4th edition rules to SWSE?

Alt F4 · Aug 23, 2008

I strongly prefer Saga to 4E. A large part of that is rules, but there's no denying that the setting itself is significant as well. I grew up on Star Wars. I knew all about wookies, Jedi, droids, and Death Stars long before I'd ever heard of dwarves, elves, dragons, or dungeons.

From a rules perspective, I see two main areas of divergence between Saga and 4th Edition D&D: classes and species. The difference in the class rules is the more significant of the two in my opinion. Not just mechanically but in design philosophy. Star Wars has a handfull of very broad base classes. Players are actively encouraged to multiclass in whatever combination they need in order to achieve the mixture of abilities they envision for their character. D&D by contrast has more classes, but their roles are more strictly defined. While multiclassing is possible in D&D, it's not as plug-and-play as it is in Star Wars. It also feels to me like the system actively discourages multiclassing in D&D.

Mechanically, I much prefer the talent trees of Star Wars to the powers of D&D. The main reason being that I find talent tress easier to use. I feel like I'm getting information overload when I look at powers in D&D. Talent trees don't give me that same feeling.

Probably the single most significant difference for me is that in Star Wars when my character attacks, he's usually just attacking. "I fire my blaster." "I swing my lightsaber." In D&D when my character attacks, he's nearly always using some sort of power. "I cleave." "I use sure sure strike." Since I find powers to be complicated, by extension that makes attacking complicated. As often as attacks happen in roleplaying games, I don't want attacking to be complicated.

So yeah, I wish 4th Edition had turned out more like Saga. Though I'm not sure it would have been possible to keep Saga's streamlined simplicity while allowing for the high-magic settings of D&D.

billd91 · Aug 23, 2008

I'm more of a fan of SWSE than 4e. I'm not a big fan of so many healing surges. I'd rather make do with a single second wind and force points, quite frankly. I think it keep the game more grounded and away from "Aw, c'mon" levels of action sequences.

PeterWeller · Aug 23, 2008

billd91 said:
I'm more of a fan of SWSE than 4e. I'm not a big fan of so many healing surges. I'd rather make do with a single second wind and force points, quite frankly. I think it keep the game more grounded and away from "Aw, c'mon" levels of action sequences.

It is kind of funny that the game that feels more like an action movie isn't the one based on action movies.

billd91 · Aug 23, 2008

PeterWeller said:
It is kind of funny that the game that feels more like an action movie isn't the one based on action movies.

Not just action movie. I'm talking more about the level of action movie that, no matter how hard you try to suspend your disbelief, you end up thinking "Aw, c'mon" because some of the action is too over-the-top or too cheesy, the hero bounces back a bit too easily or too often. The difference between Raiders of the Lost Ark and Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade comes to mind.

Angel Tarragon · Aug 24, 2008

Nikosandros said:
Has anyone actually ported some 4th edition rules to SWSE?

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Fantasy-Craft/dp/1906103232/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219540111&sr=8-1]Fantasy Craft.[/ame] Amazon lists the release date as Ocober 8th.