Cost breakdown, bracers of blinding strike

hong · Sep 12, 2002

From the big book o' broken magic:

"These bracers of armor +6 give the wearer the benefits of the Improved Initiative feat and allow him an extra attack every round at his highest bonus as if he were using a speed weapon."

The market price for this is 102,000 gp. Suppose I don't want the +6 AC (I already have another item for that). How much would the speed ability and Improved Init feat cost?

One breakdown I came up with was:

+6 AC: 36000
Speed + II feat: 33000 x2 (secondary)

Total cost: 102000 gp. Does that sound right? 33000 gp seems really low for a perma-speed enchantment.

Thanee · Sep 12, 2002

Market Price: 108,000gp

+6 AC - 36,000gp
Speed - 2x 32,000gp
Improved Initiative - 2x 4,000gp

That would be how I'd break it down, the Speed enchantment is just derived from the cost of a +4 weapon (yes, this is way too low, should be twice as much, because it is not limited to a specific weapon!!!).

The Improved Initiative Feat does also seem a little on the low side.

Bye
Thanee

Corwin · Sep 12, 2002

Thanee said:
That would be how I'd break it down, the Speed enchantment is just derived from the cost of a +4 weapon (yes, this is way too low, should be twice as much, because it is not limited to a specific weapon!!!).

I'm just thinking out loud, but wouldn't it be more intuitive to look at it as a "substantially limited" form of Haste rather than a "usable-on-any-weapon" version of Speed?

It's basically an always-on Haste usable only for attacks.

That said, the effective value of something like this has to be somewhere in the ballpark of the +4 value of the similar weapon enhancement. Otherwise a +1 Speed weapon is broken because it is too cheap.

So if a +4 equivelant weapon enhancement is worth a certain minimum amount, then that is a good place to start when coming up with the value of a wondrous item of similar power.

Really though, in the end, it comes down to the Big Question (tm):

"What is this thing really worth?"

If the answer is 102,000 gp, then that's just what it is.

Sometimes reverse engineering the cost breakdown doesn't work out cleanly. Heck, look at a Holy Avenger. What are its non-standard abilities "worth" separately? We've been trying to figure that one out, off and on, for over a year. It ain't as easy as it looks.

Just a few thoughts. I don't pretend to have all the answers. Magic item creation if very much a finessed art, rather than a hard science.

hong · Sep 12, 2002

Corwin said:
That said, the effective value of something like this has to be somewhere in the ballpark of the +4 value of the similar weapon enhancement. Otherwise a +1 Speed weapon is broken because it is too cheap.

Actually, a standalone speed item should cost _at least_ 48,000 gp market price. Why? Because to make a speed weapon, it must have a +1 enhancement bonus, so the minimum plus of such a weapon is +5. That's 50,000 gp. The cost of a +1 weapon by itself is 2,000 gp, so the cost of the speed enchantment is the difference.

And that's for _one_ weapon. The bracers give you speed with _every_ weapon you use (if I read it correctly). That's gotta be worth something.

Corwin · Sep 12, 2002

hong said:
Actually, a standalone speed item should cost _at least_ 48,000 gp market price. Why? Because to make a speed weapon, it must have a +1 enhancement bonus, so the minimum plus of such a weapon is +5. That's 50,000 gp. The cost of a +1 weapon by itself is 2,000 gp, so the cost of the speed enchantment is the difference.

And that's for _one_ weapon. The bracers give you speed with _every_ weapon you use (if I read it correctly). That's gotta be worth something.

Maybe, yeah. For the most part you are right. But what if you don't have a weapon? If disarmed, is that extra punch really that great? Sure it's a great advantage to have the flexibility, I'm not denying that. I never did.

Perhaps you could look to the Scabbard of Keen Edges. Maybe you'll find some answers there. It is doing the same thing, effectively. It's technically providing a +1 equivelant weapon ability to any blade (flexibility again).

Like I said, reverse engineering the math doesn't always work out cleanly. You may just be better off picking a ballpark number for the value of the new version of the item and weighing it against the original and other items of equal value. Sure you can use a bit of logic and educated guessing, based on what the individual powers are worth, but sometimes the whole is worth more than the sum of it's parts.

hong · Sep 12, 2002

Corwin said:
Maybe, yeah. For the most part you are right. But what if you don't have a weapon? If disarmed, is that extra punch really that great?

If I have a speed weapon, and I'm disarmed, the speed enchantment isn't that great either.

Corwin · Sep 12, 2002

hong said:
If I have a speed weapon, and I'm disarmed, the speed enchantment isn't that great either.

OK then. If you are going to continue to ignore the bulk of my posts to continue to nit-pick the little stuff...

Look, I've given you a lot to consider, IMO.

You seem to be hanging on the "it needs to be based directly on the speed enhancement thing". Well then, that's really OK. Go ahead and do it that way. If it works out, great. It's a home-made item in your game, anyway. No one is going to be able to do this for you, in the end. It has to be what you think is fair.

If you decide to do it that way, by all means, go for it. Make the cost whatever you think it should be. I've given you my insights and suggestions. That's all I can do.

I guess I'm going to continue to have to repeat myself, though. You can't always do the math cleanly in this situations. That's all I got. From there, you just gotta do what makes sense to you.

Good luck.

And post your final results, if you don't mind. I'd be interested in seeing what you finally come up with, and how you did it.

Taren Seeker · Sep 12, 2002

I think you're totally in ball park territory here.

Speed is great, but let's face it, when was the last time you went into a combat without haste, be it from Mass Haste or boots? Haste is obviously superior, but if you're not in a very cooperative party or have boots (which are usually enough to last you all day given how short HL combats are) then suddenly the bracers become much more valuable.

I play in a party with 2 mages who drop Mass Hastes when they're going to the store for groceries (for the bag boys you see) so the value of the bracers are sharply reduced. I'd probably put the speed factor at 32 k. If I was in a situation where haste was fairly rare, I'd probably double it.

For an average group who may not be so haste happy but has access, call it 48k. Improved Init is a good feat, so I'd place it at around 10k. Double that for slotless so 20 k.

That puts it around 68k. Start comparing it to the original item and some others in that price bracket and I think it fits. Unfortunately the math doesn't work that well with the regular item but as you said, the +6 is somewhat useless to you.

Like I said, you should probably consider what your overall resources are when determining how valuable it is.

YMMV.

tarkin · Sep 12, 2002

I agree, a single extra attack is NOT the same as Haste.

The power of Haste is in things like extra spell per round, and allowing a Full Round action after a move and other fancy things like that.

As such the price of around 30,000 does not seem out of line.

Corwin · Sep 12, 2002

tarkin said:
I agree, a single extra attack is NOT the same as Haste.

I'm not quite sure I follow. Who are you agreeing with again?

I don't think anyone said Speed was comparable to Haste. They may use the same mechanic, but one is obviously inferior to the other. That was never an issue.

If given my druthers, I would probably put the modified version of the item at a preliminary estimate of 40,000 gp. But that is just a guess. I haven't had a chance to put that number to scrutiny. Again, that is just for the Speed and Improved Initiative abilities. No Armor bonus.

BTW, a quick clarification: As worded, the bracers does not provide the Speed ability to two weapons (if the wearer is weilding both at once). It only provides it to the wearer and only for one extra attack per round. I know this may seem obvious to most of us, but some may not catch that and assume any weapon(s) held get the featured benefit.