New magical items





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    New magical items

    So... the judges have sorta been talking about magical items.

    Per the voting so far players can only use stuff from the PhB but we haven't technically decided what DMs can use.

    Of course, as a story element the "magical boat that can take you to the Ilse of the Faires" or "the Elvin Kings sword that can cut through stone" are just game elements.

    But as in game items there exists the question:
    How far does the "no fan content" ban (which was originally posed as a character creation limit) extend?

    The following sorts of situations can be imagined:

    • A magical item has (what I think of as) story content but is otherwise identical to a normal magic item (say... a +1 wand that also serves as a token allowing a wizard PC access to a specific magical tower)
    • An item that seems isomorphic to an existing item (Can't actually think of one that is perfectly equal but there probably is... swapping fire resistance for cold maybe?)
    • An item that could be isomorphic to an existing item, but actually isn't
      • A wand of diabolic grasp, (there is a wand of wichfire... but all powers aren't necessarily equal)
      • A flaming sword that does thunder damage (much fewer creatures have resistance to thunder than fire so its not the same thing)

    • Items that use existing rules but don't have a clear counterpart (what level is a +1 neck item that gives a +5 to saves vs ongoing damage) - warforged give saves to ongoing damage so the rule exists...
    • ... other even more novel items ...



    While the judges have not achieved mindmeld on the subject and I speak only for myself there have been.... concerns about approving new items.
    (Balance, unfamiliarity with the setting, 2ndary effects*, etc etc)
    *
    A warforged with a +5 vs ongoing damage item is at +7 because a racial bonus and an equipment bonus stack... so they fail saves of that sort on a roll of 2 or less. This arguably is very close to "you are immune to ongoing damage", which is obviously quite powerful.

    This item has not been proposed or anything. I just pulled it out of my ... nose... for purposes of discussion.


    Nobody has said 'outright ban' or 'outright ban on any non-phb item with mechanical benefits' yet, but it would be the easiest....

    We seek the wise input of the community on this topic.
    Last edited by Graf; Thursday, 18th September, 2008 at 03:00 AM.
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    We could also just decide to allow Adventurer's Vault items. I wouldn't mind that. We should be so lucky as to have enough L4E play that we got bored of AV.
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    I would like to be able to add Adventurers Vault items. I don't have the book yet, but I look forward to getting it.

  • #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Graf View Post
    An item that seems isomorphic to an existing item (Can't actually think of one that is perfectly equal but there probably is... swapping fire resistance for cold maybe?)
    That seems fine to me. Maybe add a level or two for custom work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Graf View Post
    An item that could be isomorphic to an existing item, but actually isn't

      • A wand of diabolic grasp, (there is a wand of witchfire... but all powers aren't necessarily equal)
      • A flaming sword that does thunder damage (much fewer creatures have resistance to thunder than fire so its not the same thing).
    Seems fine too with the stipulation that the item level is up to a vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Graf View Post
    Items that use existing rules but don't have a clear counterpart (what level is a +1 neck item that gives a +5 to saves vs ongoing damage) - warforged give saves to ongoing damage so the rule exists...
    This would fall under case by case for me.

    As far as Adventurer's Vault items, I'd give two thumbs up. Personally I'm all for anything from the hardcover book, including the forgotten realms books. (don't have it yet so I don't know if any items are in it)

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    Ignore Graf
    elecgraystone it wasn't exactly a proposal... I'm not sure that I want to run a vote on every item...

    Since there's no consensus yet I'll but my comment (posted before i saw egs's comment) in a sblock)
    original post


    We could allow AV say "just pick from that", but DMs will almost certainly want to create their own items....

    So if we're going to ban creation of new items we should probably let people know clearly and in advance.

    Or we could do a "you can try to get it approved but unless you can really show that its less powerful than a equivalent..."

    Or you can create unusual items, but they must not be available to PCs. So Githyanki wizards could have an Arcane Blade (works like Pact Blade but for wizards) but it only works if you're "loyal to the Gith queen" or something that a PC is unlikely to be.

    I don't have, haven't looked at AV yet...
    Last edited by Graf; Thursday, 18th September, 2008 at 03:32 AM.
    Interested in playing 4th edition online? The Living 4th EnWorld Campaign is open! [character creation wiki forum]
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    ...disquieting...
    There was no end to his patience and endurance. He played day and night, his obsession was somewhat disquieting. It was less as if he were playing to dispel gloom or beguile tedium than as if he were giving himself up to the fangs of gaming devils."
    Kawabata Yasunari - The Master of Go

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    Just to be clear, I don't have AV yet myself.

    I'm okay in principle with DM-created items, if they can clearly be demonstrated to be equal to existing items. Even with that, AV will help, as it'll give us a LOT more to work off of.
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  • #7
    I vote that anything in the hardcover books is ok.

    I'm neutral on allowing custom stuff, but if we do go that route I feel that anything custom should require approval from a disinterested third party. Showing that an item of similar power/level exists in official materials should be enough - perhaps the burden of supplying such a similar item should fall on the item designer.

  • #8
    Well, it it's an item players can't get then there isn't an issue really. That's story element/plot devise.

    If it IS able to be gotten by players, then it an issue. I don't think I'll ever need to create a new item but some might. Instead of "you can try to get it approved but unless you can really show that its less powerful than a equivalent..." I'd say "you can try to get it approved but the level may go higher than you want it to so it's balanced with items of that level." So an item like it is 5th level but what is wanted is quite a bit more powerful. It might end up a level 10 item instead or maybe higher.

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    I think the Adventurer's Vault clearly falls under the agreed upon 3 month evaluation, but I personally don't mind much one way or another so long as games aren't disrupted.

    How about this:
    When DMs submit adventures they also note which "currently non-allowed" items they want to include as treasure? Then the judges reviewing the submission can take it up among themselves at that point. Since we're (usually) only talking about a handful of items per adventure it should be manageable, and the "burden of justification" lies with the DM if the judges think there's an issue?

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    Ignore Graf
    > I vote that anything in the hardcover books is ok.
    Not voting! Just discussing.

    Seriously though, glad to hear peoples thoughts.

    We've seen one actual adventure submission so far (all props to Halford). Cov is helping me work out mine.
    So... that's.. two.

    And I can say that it's not a small amount of work (my summary was pages long, Cov's response was also of significant length).
    My initial response is that adding to that process seems like it might be unwise...
    Interested in playing 4th edition online? The Living 4th EnWorld Campaign is open! [character creation wiki forum]
    I am in an interesting period of my life; I will post in games that I run three times a week (M,W,F); and try to maintain obligations in existing games.
    ...disquieting...
    There was no end to his patience and endurance. He played day and night, his obsession was somewhat disquieting. It was less as if he were playing to dispel gloom or beguile tedium than as if he were giving himself up to the fangs of gaming devils."
    Kawabata Yasunari - The Master of Go

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