New Discussion Thread
- Thread starter L4W Facilitator
- Start date
garyh
First Post
I'm not sure I like the idea of different classes (or races) getting different point-buy amounts. For one thing, we didn't do that with MM races. For another, I think new options either should be something so blatantly overpowered that we ought to just disallow it, or it should be a normal, standard option with no penalties.
Luckily, we have time to think about it and see how they play in other games.
EDIT: Also, let's say Genasi are reduced to 22 points, and Swordmages are reduced to 22 points. Does that mean Genasi Swordmages have 19 point buy? No one is going to give up that many points for a variant option, but if the penalties don't stack, then there's no reason NOT to play both a genasi and swordmage. There's a whole can of worms here.
Atanatotatos
First Post
Anyway, can someone really explain WHY swordmages would be "better" than any class?
What is it?
-They have many different options, but a defender doesn't need many different options. They're nice to have, but efficiency in what they have to do is better. The fact that they can target different defenses means almost nothing, since the target number is lower, but the attack bonus is too. There is usually a small advantage, but nothing unbalancing. Otherwise people should run around yelling that Rogue's piercing strike is horribly broken.
-The swordmage has defender Ac. True, but it's conditional Ac. They must wear light armor, which has considerably less "chunky" magic enhancement; they must have one hand free. They must use heavy blades. See below why this can be bad.
-They don't suffer from MAD. Not true. You can argue that swordmages only need Int and either con or str... let's see where this brings us. You can build a fighter with only Str and Con, and it will be fine... but not as effective as it could be. Same for swordsmage. As every defender, they need con. They can forget strenght if they go with intelligent swordmaster, BUT. The have to use heavy blades; which are great, cause there are many great feats for them...except... they need dexterity, which is normally a dump stat for swordmages. And the will practically never use any other weapon type, so swordmages are unlikely to have great advantages from weapons they wield. The best swordmage pp is, probably, Wandering Swordmage, which needs badly...wisom; another semi-dump stat. And, please, let's not forget defenses.
-Striker dmg. Heh. It's true that genasi get some very nifty damage bonus feats... on basic attacks. How is this better than fighters getting a bonus=wis to hit for opportunity attacks and stopping the movement if they hit?
-controller...control. Swordmage At-will have better control than the wizard's? No. I'll make just an example. Thunderblast's push is=wis. Than can mean 4 squares push at 1st lvl... and if you're really focused, 9-10 at 30. As a close blast. That you can enhance insanely with feats. An at-will. Plus debuffing powers, minion-killing, auto-minion killing...no. really. And how is it better (though robably as good as) fighter's combat challenge? I mean, coupled with combat superiority, you mark an enemy and if he does anything but attack you, you slap him in the face and yell SHUT UP SUCKER.
Is there something else... I ranted way too much, sorry.
Anyway....tome, the true epitome of the defender is a dwarf/warforged fighter/iron vanguard with maxed constitution and using hammers... if you want to see what I mean take a look at this. And that's an easy build.
Where is this unbalance?
What is it?
-They have many different options, but a defender doesn't need many different options. They're nice to have, but efficiency in what they have to do is better. The fact that they can target different defenses means almost nothing, since the target number is lower, but the attack bonus is too. There is usually a small advantage, but nothing unbalancing. Otherwise people should run around yelling that Rogue's piercing strike is horribly broken.
-The swordmage has defender Ac. True, but it's conditional Ac. They must wear light armor, which has considerably less "chunky" magic enhancement; they must have one hand free. They must use heavy blades. See below why this can be bad.
-They don't suffer from MAD. Not true. You can argue that swordmages only need Int and either con or str... let's see where this brings us. You can build a fighter with only Str and Con, and it will be fine... but not as effective as it could be. Same for swordsmage. As every defender, they need con. They can forget strenght if they go with intelligent swordmaster, BUT. The have to use heavy blades; which are great, cause there are many great feats for them...except... they need dexterity, which is normally a dump stat for swordmages. And the will practically never use any other weapon type, so swordmages are unlikely to have great advantages from weapons they wield. The best swordmage pp is, probably, Wandering Swordmage, which needs badly...wisom; another semi-dump stat. And, please, let's not forget defenses.
-Striker dmg. Heh. It's true that genasi get some very nifty damage bonus feats... on basic attacks. How is this better than fighters getting a bonus=wis to hit for opportunity attacks and stopping the movement if they hit?
-controller...control. Swordmage At-will have better control than the wizard's? No. I'll make just an example. Thunderblast's push is=wis. Than can mean 4 squares push at 1st lvl... and if you're really focused, 9-10 at 30. As a close blast. That you can enhance insanely with feats. An at-will. Plus debuffing powers, minion-killing, auto-minion killing...no. really. And how is it better (though robably as good as) fighter's combat challenge? I mean, coupled with combat superiority, you mark an enemy and if he does anything but attack you, you slap him in the face and yell SHUT UP SUCKER.
Is there something else... I ranted way too much, sorry.
Anyway....tome, the true epitome of the defender is a dwarf/warforged fighter/iron vanguard with maxed constitution and using hammers... if you want to see what I mean take a look at this. And that's an easy build.
Where is this unbalance?
elecgraystone
First Post
Well let me make a few points in reaction to your post Atanatotatos.
Targeting different defenses in very good. While the average defense in only a few points lower than AC some are MUCH lower. Some of the higher level monsters can see a HUGE drop depending on which defense you pick. I've seen will and ref attacks have a +3 or 4 advantage over an AC attack.
I'm not seeing the more "chunky" for heavy armor. There are plenty of cool light armor enchantments. (looking through AV, all armor classes have cool enchants)
Swordmages suffer less from MAD than others if they take intelligent swordmaster. You point out feats and PP, but every class has those. If you want certain ones, you need stats. Arcane reach uses dex but that doesn't make wizards more MAD unless they want to be.
Striker? not really. If they are stepping on anyone's shoes it's controllers with the area attacks. Are they better? No, just different. Wizards Thunderblast hits more people and pushes but the swordmages sword burst only hits enemies making it usable more often.
After all of that, I'll agree with you that swordmages aren't better than fighters or paladins, just different. If you are looking for a pure defender you can't beat the fighters combat challenge/combat superiority. The paladin makes a good leader/defender if you need a little healing and buffs. Swordmages makes a good controller/defender if you need a little more crowd control.
Targeting different defenses in very good. While the average defense in only a few points lower than AC some are MUCH lower. Some of the higher level monsters can see a HUGE drop depending on which defense you pick. I've seen will and ref attacks have a +3 or 4 advantage over an AC attack.
I'm not seeing the more "chunky" for heavy armor. There are plenty of cool light armor enchantments. (looking through AV, all armor classes have cool enchants)
Swordmages suffer less from MAD than others if they take intelligent swordmaster. You point out feats and PP, but every class has those. If you want certain ones, you need stats. Arcane reach uses dex but that doesn't make wizards more MAD unless they want to be.
Striker? not really. If they are stepping on anyone's shoes it's controllers with the area attacks. Are they better? No, just different. Wizards Thunderblast hits more people and pushes but the swordmages sword burst only hits enemies making it usable more often.
After all of that, I'll agree with you that swordmages aren't better than fighters or paladins, just different. If you are looking for a pure defender you can't beat the fighters combat challenge/combat superiority. The paladin makes a good leader/defender if you need a little healing and buffs. Swordmages makes a good controller/defender if you need a little more crowd control.
Atanatotatos
First Post
Exactly my point.
elecgraystone
First Post
Personally, I like the swordmage because of three things.
#1 I can make a defender without NEEDING strength. That's just awesome and opens up a lot more races to being great defenders.
#2 I LOVE the aegis of shielding. There are times that it's impossible to stop a bad guy from attacking someone other than you. This lets you reduce the damage to them. Pure awesome.
#3 The synergy between swordmage and wizard is awesome. It makes me WANT to multiclass and spend a few feats. Think of a Wizard of the Spiral Tower that picks up the multiclass swordmage feat and intelligent swordmaster. You can actually HIT something with your sword now!
Phoenix8008
First Post
Is there any detailed info on the Empire of Jade anywhere? All I can find is the mention of it in the Isle of Opposition entry and the Dragonborn races entry. Is that all there is so far? If so, is it just assumed to be a generic Oriental setting for the most part?
garyh
First Post
I believe that's correct. If there's anything further, Graf would probably know.
Well, there are three characters in the Tavern right now for sure: Vixo, Skalisss, and Trevor. There may be others lurking that haven't posted recently, you never know.
Similar Threads
AD6_gamerati_skyscraper
Recent & Upcoming Releases
-
April 16 2024 -
May 31 2024 -
June 3 2024 -
June 4 2024 -
June 18 2024 -
July 16 2024 -
September 17 2024 -
October 1 2024 -
November 12 2024 -
February 18 2025
