Adventure's vault wackyness

brehobit · Oct 7, 2008

#1 I finally got a copy (okay borrowed). I like it a lot so far. Some of the issues raised here concern me, but I haven't gotten that far (and won't for a bit).
#2 There are some very powerful things in there. Most of which I suspect were not on purpose.
- Double sword. Not only does it grant a +1 AC modifier, but it looks to me like it stacks with two-handed weapon feats. Further, a rouge using it can take the heavy weapon feat that allows you to use an at-will as an attack of opportunity AND actually do so because it is also a light blade. I think this thing is now a rogue's (at least level 11+) best friend. CHR based rogues rejoice.
- Agile armor is very powerful, likely too powerful. Heavy blade fighters already have a good dex (15 by level 11, 17 by level 21). A 30th level fighter would LOVE that +3 AC bonus. And you aren't really giving anything up for it. Best AC is now 52 (for a heavy armor type) as far as I can tell.

That's it for now.

Mark

Evilhalfling · Oct 7, 2008

agile armor is rated the highest of all armor powers (ie +4 to the base level)
and it does not function when bloodied, so that bonus to armor is going to let you down when you need it. What your giving up is other high value items that you could be using instead and the opportunity costs of other armor powers.
Also not as helpful for high int characters.

double swords, yeah they are just better.

Benimoto · Oct 7, 2008

Evilhalfling said:
agile armor is rated the highest of all armor powers (ie +4 to the base level)
and it does not function when bloodied, so that bonus to armor is going to let you down when you need it. What your giving up is other high value items that you could be using instead and the opportunity costs of other armor powers.
Also not as helpful for high int characters.

That, and getting the bonus from agile armor requires a significant investment in stat points, if you're using point buy. The initial 14 costs 5 out of your 22 points. I know that a 15 Dex at paragon is also useful for some good feats, but the cost is there.

WalterKovacs · Oct 7, 2008

Heavy Blade Opportunity does require 15 STR. So for a Rogue to get it, they need to pretty much start with 14 STR. So, if they are going Charisma based to be able to get a great sly flourish, they have to take at least a small dip in their Charisma to get that high with strength [either they dip during build, or they dip at 4 or 8 by not going with bonuses to DEX and CHA.] Best case, is a drow [halfling can't wield the dual blade] going with 18 DEX, 17 CHA, 14 STR and 1 point left over. A Bugbear is able to go with 18 DEX, 16 CHA, 14 STR and 2 points left over.

In any case, you are giving up some charisma in exchange for the strength, so your sly flourish is a bit weaker than it could be. [In fact, you could even get 20 DEX and 16 with a drow, which has the same damage of sly flourish, while also increasing the chances of hitting with all of the rogues powers, increases the damage output of the rest, and increasing the rogues initiative, AC, reflex defense, etc]. If you go with a brutal scoundrel, you easily meet the strength prereq, but you have a high str so your basic melee attack is reasonably high anyway, and the extra damage from sly flourish is a bit lower as well.

So, it's a trade off. The more worrisome fact is basically that it's purely better than a rapier unless you are a halfling [or you need something in your off hand].

HighTemplar · Oct 7, 2008

who uses those stats systems anyways

Bond James Bond · Oct 7, 2008

WalterKovacs said:
If you go with a brutal scoundrel, you easily meet the strength prereq, but you have a high str so your basic melee attack is reasonably high anyway, and the extra damage from sly flourish is a bit lower as well.

So, it's a trade off.

How is it a tradeoff for a brutal scoundrel? Clearly, it is just plain better than any other weapon for him without a single downside, since a brutal scoundrel won`t be using sly floorish as his primary attack anyway.

Even for an artful dodger, I wouldnt call it a tradeoff. Just because you have the opportunity to buy HBO, doesnt mean you have to do so and pum str at all cost (especially at heroic).

Don`t get me wrong, the 2 bladed sword isnt broken, but I do find it strange that it is now supposed to be THE rogue weapon.

Hammerhead · Oct 7, 2008

It's a light blade, so a Rogue can use it effectively. The Double Sword does as much damage as a Rapier, but also counts as a Heavy Blade, and most importantly, has the Defensive property which gives you a bonus to AC.

Stalker0 · Oct 7, 2008

Hammerhead said:
The Double Sword does as much damage as a Rapier, but also counts as a Heavy Blade, and most importantly, has the Defensive property which gives you a bonus to AC.

These are all very true, but you guys are forgetting about the double sword's other property:

Lame: Your character is in a word....lame. All other PCs gain the ability to call you names to your face, in character and out of character.

So with that in mind, I think its compares pretty well to the rapier

Majushi · Oct 7, 2008

Why? The Rapier has the property: Ponce.

Ponce: Your character is in a word.... a ponce. All other PCs gain the ability to wedgie you whenever they want as a free action.

Deadstop · Oct 7, 2008

Huh, yeah, the double sword is weird.

I was thinking that the primary end counts as a heavy blade and the secondary end counts as a light blade, so that you couldn't actually use Heavy Blade Opportunist and rogue powers at the same time.

Upon checking again, the book doesn't actually say that, though. It just assigns the weapon to both groups, and both ends are described as "longswords" and do d8 damage. Really not sure where the "light blade" factor comes in.

The urgrosh (which counts as both an axe and a spear) suggests that the "one end for each" idea is true for at least some double weapons, since one end is an axe head and the other a spearpoint. Presumably you can only use axe powers with the axe end and spear powers with the spear end.

Such a distinction does not apply as easily to the double sword, though it's possible to infer that the authors' intent is similar. How something can simultaneously be a heavy blade and a light blade, if the reference is not to the two distinct ends, I am not sure.

Deadstop