How Might D&D Religions Differ From Real Life Religions?

Staffan · Oct 15, 2008

billd91 said:
I could certainly see a level of clergy that performs rituals for (and draws power from) multiple deities, something like a generic priest of a pantheon, performing the rituals appropriate to several civic gods.

I had an idea along those lines back in 2e, inspired by (of all things) the computer game Bard's Tale III, and pretty similar to 3e's prestige classes. The idea was that low-level clerics were generalists (and would have minor access to all spheres), but once you hit level 5 or so you would choose a specific deity to worship. This would give you a limited spell list at higher spell levels, but you would also gain special abilities based on your chosen god. I never actually developed the idea much beyond what I wrote here, but I thought it was pretty nifty.

Cadfan · Oct 15, 2008

Umbran said:
The actions of characters casting spells may be manifest - but that's not the same as the clear actions of the gods themselves. The Core Rules don't have rules for deity avatars walking around, last I checked.

But do you, really? You know somebody cast a spell. You don't know the source of the power. You know what the caster says (or thinks) the source is, but that's not the same as knowing for sure.

Remember - Bards (arcane casters) had Cure Light Wounds.

Yeah, yeah. Look, all I'm saying is this:

Take a hypothetical religious ritual, lets say, " Say a prayer to Saint X and he'll help you find your lost car keys."

I'm just saying that a religious belief like that is much, much less likely in a world where there is a religion-keyed ritual called "Find Lost Car Keys" that always works and invokes explicitly magical effects.

After all, why would you pray to Saint X for help finding your car keys? You know the proper way to do that. With the ritual, not the quiet prayer. A person who insisted upon calling upon the aid of Saint X in what is obviously a blatantly incorrect manner would be treated much like people in the real world treat someone who truly believes that he can make international phone calls with two cups and a really long string. There's a right way to make international phone calls (with a telephone), we all know it, and anyone who insists on doing it wrong is a fool.

Simon Atavax · Oct 15, 2008

I'm feeling generous, so I'm not banning you for essentially attempting to stir up trouble. However, if you bothered to read on in the thread you would see that this is still all proceeding upon reasonable discussion lines at the moment.

If you want to participate, feel free to do so, but participate meaningfully please.

billd91 · Oct 15, 2008

Cadfan said:
Yeah, yeah. Look, all I'm saying is this:

Take a hypothetical religious ritual, lets say, " Say a prayer to Saint X and he'll help you find your lost car keys."

I'm just saying that a religious belief like that is much, much less likely in a world where there is a religion-keyed ritual called "Find Lost Car Keys" that always works and invokes explicitly magical effects.

But there is also a world of difference between a ritual helping you and doing it for you. I the net effect of performing the car key finding ritual was that you'd be more likely to find your keys, the perceivable difference between the ritual and the placebo prayer may be negligible. And that leaves the door wide open for prayer.

Miyaa · Oct 15, 2008

doctorhook said:
FIFY.

I hear that, brother! This approach to fantasy-religion allows for somewhat more nuanced religious conflicts than the ol' Time of Troubles, "I-sit-next-to-my-deity-every-Tuesday-morning-on-the-commuter-bus", Forgotten Realms approach.

I don't know. I kind of like the idea of having a "I slept with the Goddess Sune and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" plot. I mean it's a staple of Greek and Roman mythology for gods to interact with mortals indirectly, and even more so in most modern religions.

What I really don't get is the overlord so-far away god motif like the Over God AO in Forgotten Realms. In most religions either there's no such thing, or he will let his will be known threw his threw others (Prophets, Angels, other Gods, etc.). Even if you're the Granddaddy of the Gods, if you don't let yourself be known, you don't exist. So having a God so powerful he doesn't have to let himself be known to any potential followers does not make sense. All religions require some sort of dialogue between the worshiper and the deity, whether it would be through prayer or actual interactions.

Voadam · Oct 15, 2008

Plane Sailing said:
In my Eberron campaign I replaced all clerics, wizards and sorcerers with a single class called "Scholar", which basically was like a wizard but with d6 HD and the spell list was drawn from the full cleric list as well as the full wizard list.

Some scholars worked for the temples and claimed their powers were drawn from the gods. Other scholars worked for themselves and claimed their powers were the result of science or occult studies or whatever.

It made for a neat twist on my setting.

Neat set up. How did you handle spells like commune where you actually contact your god or its agents, ask a question, and get an answer? Contact any god you want, contact random powerful outsider, get an answer from the universe/fate/whatever?

Voadam · Oct 15, 2008

Switchblade said:
I wasn't actually thinking divine magic being the only proof. (I've read to many fantasty novels where the priests were all secretly wizards).
I was more thinking people going to the afterlife and coming back, planar travel and that only those who seem to follow a faith can manifest certain spells while faithless wizards utilize a different sort of magic, only the faithful clerics can turn undead etc. That and clerics who stop following their god lose all their powers.

It's certainly not watertight and there is room for a skeptic to not believe but it is compelling.

Eh.

Isn't it that you can't remember anything of the afterlife when you are raised so that even though it happens according to the rules you don't really know that directly even when you go through it?

Planar travel would depend on where you go on the infinite planes. Meeting a god seems pretty rare there as well.

Godless clerics significantly take away from the theory that cleric only magic shows gods.

And clerics who stop following their god don't necessarily lose their powers under 3e, only "A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god". I can see plenty of gods who don't require a code of conduct being consistent with D&D.

How a DM conceives of his gods interactions with the mortal world, whether they are distant or appearing, whether they directly interact with mortals or not, will be a big factor in how they are viewed compared to real world religions.

doctorhook · Oct 16, 2008

Miyaa said:
I don't know. I kind of like the idea of having a "I slept with the Goddess Sune and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt" plot. I mean it's a staple of Greek and Roman mythology for gods to interact with mortals indirectly, and even more so in most modern religions.

You make a good point, and to be fair, Greek and Roman mythology is probably substantially responsible for the popularity of that approach to religion in D&D. It's also worth considering how different this approach is to the religious background of the culture in which D&D originated. (IE: American Christian).

Miyaa said:
What I really don't get is the overlord so-far away god motif like the Over God AO in Forgotten Realms. In most religions either there's no such thing, or he will let his will be known threw his threw others (Prophets, Angels, other Gods, etc.). Even if you're the Granddaddy of the Gods, if you don't let yourself be known, you don't exist. So having a God so powerful he doesn't have to let himself be known to any potential followers does not make sense. All religions require some sort of dialogue between the worshiper and the deity, whether it would be through prayer or actual interactions.

(Highlighting added) Well, I'm not sure that anything necessarily needs to do anything in order to exist, but you're right about dialogue: Certainly, if a deity doesn't make them self known, no one will know they exist in order to worship them.

(Note that some of the areas you and I have mentioned do not necessarily apply to most real-life religions.)

Plane Sailing · Oct 16, 2008

Voadam said:
Neat set up. How did you handle spells like commune where you actually contact your god or its agents, ask a question, and get an answer? Contact any god you want, contact random powerful outsider, get an answer from the universe/fate/whatever?

In most cases it was down to contacting powerful extraplanar creatures who also revere the same pantheon and who have far greater insight about situations than you do. Non-religious scholars contacted renowned powerful extraplanar creatures of no particular religious affiliation but who are known for their knowledge of a particular subject, perhaps.

(although for the silver flame you could be literally communing directly with the spirit of the silver flame)

Cheers

Loincloth of Armour · Oct 16, 2008

I too like the Eberron way of handling conflicting religions, which is basically summed up by, "Which one is right? You gotta take it on faith. No one will tell you the answer."

What I really like about that setting is that you can summon up an angel and ask them, "Are the Sovereign Hosts truly gods?" and the angel could answer you, "Yes they are. And I worship them."

But it is possible for someone else to summon up a different angel and ask them the same question and have that angel say, "No. There is no proof the Host actually exists, or that they are divine."

The movers-and-shakers of the Eberron planes can have differences of opinions on deities. If celestials have questions over the status of gods, then by gosh those pesky mortals mostly certainly do.