Kobold Dragonshield Tactics power question

Phoenix8008 · Oct 15, 2008

I'm sure this has been asked long ago, but since I don't have the search function I ask it yet again.

If a Kobold Dragonshield has an enemy shift towards it and attack, is the attack negated by the Dragonshield Tactics power allowing the kobold to shift away 1 square as an immediate reaction? Or does the attack happen first and then the kobold shifts after that?

Thanks for your help!

Kordeth · Oct 15, 2008

Phoenix8008 said:
I'm sure this has been asked long ago, but since I don't have the search function I ask it yet again.

If a Kobold Dragonshield has an enemy shift towards it and attack, is the attack negated by the Dragonshield Tactics power allowing the kobold to shift away 1 square as an immediate reaction? Or does the attack happen first and then the kobold shifts after that?

Thanks for your help!

The dragonshield's shift occurs immediately after the movement (reactions to movement can work like interrupts). Whether that negates the attack depends on several factors. If the attacker is using a power that allows him to shift and attack as part of the same action, the attack would be negated if the attacker has no more movement left as part of the action (e.g. the attacker has a power that says "shift 1 and then attack"). If the attacker still has movement left as part of the attack, he can still use it to follow the dragonshield and attack.

If the attacker was just moving up with a normal shift action, then attacking, the attack isn't wasted because the attacker hasn't used that standard action yet. Assuming he has a way to continue moving, he can follow the dragonshield and attack it, or if not he can still take another standard action.

DracoSuave · Oct 20, 2008

Altho, do remember, if he shifted forward, his move action is completed at the end of it, so he needs another move action to play thunk the kobold if he doesn't have a reach weapon.

Kordeth · Oct 20, 2008

DracoSuave said:
Altho, do remember, if he shifted forward, his move action is completed at the end of it, so he needs another move action to play thunk the kobold if he doesn't have a reach weapon.

That's why I said "assuming he has a way to continue moving."

E.g. a rogue with a speed of 6 uses tumble to shift into a flanking position on a kobold dragonshield, who then activates dragonshield tactics and shifts 1 square away. The rogue can then follow with his 2 remaining squares of shift and smack the kobold.

OR

A ranger shifts up to a kobold dragonshield with a normal shift action, the dragonshield shifts away. The ranger uses evasive strike to move and attack.

OR

Of course, another kobold can shift after the dragonshield as a minor action.

DracoSuave · Oct 20, 2008

True, but they can't keep going if they could have moved more by using a walk action instead of a shift action.

For example:

'I shift forward.'
'DS Shifts back as Interrupt.'
'Oh frack that, I'll walk then.'
'Nope, you shifted, dude.'

Also, if they used an alternative move action to shift, such as a power like Tumble, then it's open that they've used a power giving them that leeway and the kobold can react accordingly, even tho he doesn't know the magnitude of their shift, perhaps saving his interrupt for later.

The other two examples tho, with a shift-than-attack power, or with a power such as Shifty, work just fine.

Kordeth · Oct 20, 2008

DracoSuave said:
True, but they can't keep going if they could have moved more by using a walk action instead of a shift action.

For example:

'I shift forward.'
'DS Shifts back as Interrupt.'
'Oh frack that, I'll walk then.'
'Nope, you shifted, dude.'

Meh--as long as the shift didn't actually avoid any OAs (in which case why the heck was the player shifting in the first place, but we'll go with it for the example), I'd probably allow him to swap his action for a walk, just like in 3E you could take your first attack before deciding whether it was a standard action attack or the first attack of a full attack--but by RAW, you're correct.

Also, if they used an alternative move action to shift, such as a power like Tumble, then it's open that they've used a power giving them that leeway and the kobold can react accordingly, even tho he doesn't know the magnitude of their shift, perhaps saving his interrupt for later.

Of course the kobold can choose not to use dragonshield tactics, but that's not really the point of the discussion. Bear in mind that the "open" nature of powers apply only to effects you put on a creature, not powers you use on yourself. If you hit the kobold with a power that will damage it if it moves away from you, it knows about that; if you use tumble it doesn't automatically know you can now shift up to half your speed as a move action.

DracoSuave · Oct 21, 2008

It knows that you're using a power, and that power does not affect it, and that you're shifting. Said power being a multiple-shift power is the most reasonable conclusion. It won't tell how much of a shift, but it can tell that your power is letting your shift due to direct observation. Kobolds aren't stupid.

Kordeth · Oct 21, 2008

DracoSuave said:
It knows that you're using a power

No, actually, I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It knows you just shifted adjacent to it--it has no way of knowing that you can shift more as part of the same action. Monsters don't know when you use a power, they know when you affect them with a power. Unless there's a rule I'm missing, PHB p. 57 is pretty clear that knowledge of power use only comes when you affect a critter with a power.

DracoSuave · Oct 21, 2008

P 57 includes no text about power-use secrecy, except to say that a creature gets to know exactly what you've done to it. It includes zero text saying that it doesn't get to know that you've used the Use a Power action. According to the DMG, you're assumed to be open and above the board about the sorts of actions you're performing.

For example: You don't have to tell them the creature -has- an unused interrupt action, but when the creature performs it, you're supposed to let them know what the action does, for the most part. When you're using an action, you're supposed to let them know what action you're using, even if the specifics are kept quiet.

The sequence goes like this.
Ranger declares he's using the Use a Power action, no target.
Kobold knows he's using a power, knows he's not target, and through free action use, knows his fellow allies are not targets.
Ranger shifts.
Kobold reasonable deduces the shift is part of the effect of the power, and can decide as a matter of tactics whether or not it is wise to shift again. Now, he doesn't know if the power is 'Shift 5 squares' or 'Shift two squares' but he knows a) it's a power and b) it's a shift power. He might conclude the character has a shift X power, or might also conclude the character has Shifty. It's very reasonable for members of a race who have a power allowing them to shift acknowledge the existance of powers that allow the user to shift.

Yes, this also means that players get to know that Kobolds use a power to shift 1. It works both ways.