Discussing 4e Subsystems: POWERS!

Mustrum_Ridcully · Nov 11, 2008

Bagpuss said:
They can now achieve a lot of the effects without dependence on magic items which is a good thing in my opinion. In 3rd Ed particular a character was as defined by his items as much as anything else.

I am not sure "defining" is the right work - unless I think in terms of "muscle definition" - Most of the cruicial items where just giving you plusses that would somehow affect your ability to hit and deal damage or avoid or survive damage. And not in any particular interesting way, just by increasing your numbers.

(A very simple example of interesting might be more an example like Boots of Flying - you can fly so you can deal damage to other flying opponents, or you can fly to avoid taking damage. But it's "interesting" because these uses are more open ended. Just adding +2 to Strength to get a +1 to attack and damage isn't interesting.)

Of course, 4E didn't entire eliminate this, but at least its not hidden behind ability enhancement and stuff like that, its straigtforward "this adds to attack and damage, this adds to AC and this adds to other defenses). Still boring, but at least without the fiddliness.

OchreJelly · Nov 11, 2008

Good write up! I agree that the level of choice could be improved, however, I, like others have mentioned, play down the notion that most gamers will always pick the ‘best’ option. The fighter player in my group, for example, is somewhat of a power gamer yet he likes the ‘big damage’ powers with no rider. What’s fun for him is rolling as much damage dice as possible (and he absolutely loves the executioners axe btw) and he doesn’t care much about riders, because that’s what the other players focus on.

I think the developers did a great job in not only designing powers around individual play-style tastes, but also around giving power gamers a choice within the group context. The fighter may say ‘hey I don’t need a lot of rider powers because there’s two controllers in our group. I need to step up and be more of a striker fighter and choose my powers accordingly”.

Is there room to improve? Absolutely. As splats come out, we know it’s going to open creative builds. The ability to swap powers at new levels is a nice touch too, as I’ve seen put to great use in my party.

Bagpuss · Nov 11, 2008

justanobody said:
Kender Taunt, followed by a called shot.

NEXT!

Kender Taunt is that a Racial ability? If so it does seem rather more limited than something open to all fighters. Also how does that work mechanics wise, does it involve some sort of check or is it automatic?

A called shot can hit multiple targets, how does that work mechanically?

justanobody · Nov 11, 2008

Bagpuss said:
Kender Taunt is that a Racial ability? If so it does seem rather more limited than something open to all fighters. Also how does that work mechanics wise, does it involve some sort of check or is it automatic?

A called shot can hit multiple targets, how does that work mechanically?

Yeah it is a racial ability. But not as silly as trying to be Scorpion from Mortal Kombat in D&D just to try to get some strange effect that shouldn't be had.

Tell me how in the real world that stunt of a power would be pulled?

Called shot in 3rd would effectively be an attack with a DC required extra to hit and pull it off. Most called shots in earlier forms would require a 20 on a d20.

So mechanically:

Roll your dice to attempt the called shot.
If you get a 20 on the dice then each target would take the damage.

Specifics would depend on your DM ruling how much damage is dealt.

I don't find cartoon antics to be a good way to claim a power as justified to improve options for a class though.

Benimoto · Nov 11, 2008

Stalker0 said:
Balancing of Powers
As I said in the last section, 4e has a problem with players picking the same powers over and over again. Part of this is the choice of one power, part is the limited number of choices we have in the core books, and finally it’s the fact that many powers seem very poorly balanced with each other.
I’ll give a quick example, the 5th level fighter’s daily, Rain of Steel. To my mind, this is the only fighter daily worth considering. I can have a daily that lasts all fight and does automatic damage, or a daily that might do some damage and a status effect for a round or two.

Like others have responded, I think that the whole "best power" thing is something that depends highly on your group and the style of each player in it. Playing with a few different groups, I've found that certain groups will develop a particular style and that the wisdom of playing in that style will percolate through the group until it just seems like common sense.

Rain of Steel seems poorly balanced when you put the fighter in a hypothetical situation where it could inflict 50[W] damage, but that situation is just that, hypothetical. Rain of Steel has an opportunity cost--it can't be used with any other stance. It also trades damage in the present for damage in the future. Finally, unlike the other two Fighter Daily 5 powers, it doesn't inflict any sort of condition. Any sort of balancing system has to assign values to these kinds of things, and those values are going to be subjective.

Remathilis · Nov 11, 2008

Bagpuss said:
Lets go for the most basic level. Encourage opponents to close with me then hit them all with a large sweep of my sword.

Goad (Feat) and Whirlwind Attack?

Alternately, Knights Challenge and a Full Attack + Great Cleave?

Bagpuss · Nov 11, 2008

justanobody said:
Yeah it is a racial ability. But not as silly as trying to be Scorpion from Mortal Kombat in D&D just to try to get some strange effect that shouldn't be had.

Now who's limiting player options?

Tell me how in the real world that stunt of a power would be pulled?

Here are three examples of the top of my head.

Feigning weakness, so that your enemies close to exploit it, then swing as they come in.

Literally shout something like "Come on then" taunting the enemies to focus on you.

Or all the enemies just happen to close on you at once, and you swing to defend yourself.

The shift while being forced movement, is just a rule mechanic, it doesn't in this case have to represent actual an force involved (like Scorpion in Mortal Kombat).

The NPCs just elects to move towards the fighter at that time (for whatever reason), and he is ready to exploit it.

Called shot in 3rd would effectively be an attack with a DC required extra to hit and pull it off. Most called shots in earlier forms would require a 20 on a d20.

So you either make it so hard that it is never worth doing (like needing a 20 on the dice) or have it easier and end up with it being worth trying every round, especially if you build a character to exploit whatever rule the DM comes up with.

I don't find cartoon antics to be a good way to claim a power as justified to improve options for a class though.

It's hardly cartoon, I can think of several examples from the genre in film and literature where a hero has been surrounded and lashes out at several opponents when they close on him.

Bagpuss · Nov 11, 2008

Remathilis said:
Goad (Feat) and Whirlwind Attack?

Does really mimic what I'm taking about (drawing opponents towards you), and they don't work well together, since

Goad only effects one opponent and they have to be threatening you to start with.

Still lets look at Goad.

Say you design a character around that feat, you max out your AC and defenses, boost your Cha, so that melee opponents (known for having low will saves) will always attack you.

That will then become your tactic in every fight against a melee opponent. And why not you've invested a lot in this build?

They are forced to attack you every round and there is nothing the DM can do, the other players just either heal you or flank to sneak attack it with no fear of being attacked, etc.

Those sort of combats and the whole of it because you pull the same tactic every round, then become predicable and routine.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Nov 11, 2008

The "Come and Get Some" scene can be found in many movies. It is always portrayed in a manner letting you think that this is what HAS to happen at that moment. (Though this expectation is sometimes subverted - like in Princess Bride and Inogo finally meeting his nemesis - and it running away).

All those fiddly bits "roll a bluff/taunt check to goad your enemies bla bla bla" - they just distract from the scene you expect to see. This is just a scene that, when the opportunity presents itself, has to happen!

So, now back to your regularly scheduled Subsystem Discussion thread.

justanobody · Nov 11, 2008

Bagpuss said:
Here are three examples of the top of my head.

Feigning weakness, so that your enemies close to exploit it, then swing as they come in.

Literally shout something like "Come on then" taunting the enemies to focus on you.

Or all the enemies just happen to close on you at once, and you swing to defend yourself.

The NPCs just elects to move towards the fighter at that time (for whatever reason), and he is ready to exploit it.

There you go then. You answer your own question as to how it could be done in older editions and didn't require some video game power to do it.

Notice yourself using a "taunt" ability that is a racial for Kender, but doesn't discount other races or even classes from doing something to piss off the enemy to rush him, or the enemy leader to order them all to rush him.

So the power isn't need to do it.

Explain to me why you can only swing your sword at more than one enemy in this sweeping motion once per encounter in 4th and that make sense?

Because you ran out of use of the power right? So it is ok to be "like the movie where it has to happen" as mentioned by M_R, but you can only do it once, because a fighter is so inept at being able to do something more than once.

I call that a lack of options.

DM: Sorry Tom, you can't make anymore wild swings at the enemies hoping to hit more than one at a time because you used up your encounter power.

Isn't it great to play in a movie script where the director (DM/rules) dictate (railroad) you actions and choices?

Discussing 4e Subsystems: POWERS!

Mustrum_Ridcully

Hero

OchreJelly

First Post

Bagpuss

Legend

justanobody

Banned

Benimoto

First Post

Remathilis

Legend

Bagpuss

Legend

Bagpuss

Legend

Mustrum_Ridcully

Hero

justanobody

Banned

Similar Threads