old school modules = SPACE!

bert1000 · Nov 12, 2008

Inspired by the many BEMCI and AD&D threads that have popped up, I got out N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God for a kick. It's a great intro adventure, and I spotted an interesting design choice that 4e modules have lacked so far.

***SPOILERS***

In N1, there is

1) a nice town with interesting personalities and a mystery to solve
2) a couple small dungeons in town
3) a large dungeon with random encounters that make sense (in fact 2 of the random encounters are wandering set encounters)
4) the encounters made sense for the most part, no crazy monster right next to another

Now, I think H2 Thunderspire in 4e actually does the above pretty well. Here's the part that was refreshing for me coming back to this material:

5) especially in the large dungeon, there was a lot of SPACE (e.g., areas with no encounters)! And the space was intelligent. Here's some examples,

a) an empty room of mud that was similar to other rooms that had monsters -- keeps you on your toes
b) a storeroom that added details of the inhabitants (e.g., cheap wine with a couple bottles of special wine)
c) a cavern with undead that were acting as a bilge pump by using buckets to bail water out of the cavern, with no chance they will attack unless provoked. Awesome!

I was pleasantly surprised at the space between combat encounters within the dungeon, and the fact that the space ADDED a lot to the feel of the place. Let's put the explore/space back in the 4e dungeons, as I think the combat encounter designs have been pretty good in published stuff.

Philotomy Jurament · Nov 12, 2008

One thing I like about empty space in dungeons is that it allows for pursuit and evasion, which is important in the kind of play-style I prefer. In my game, PCs are free to roam, which includes getting into areas and encounters that may not be level-appropriate. They need to be able to judge when to run, and when they *do* run, it's good to have some space. Knowing when to run and being able to get away is no less important than knowing your combat tactics. There's a reason the older rules talk about things like dropping food or treasure, spiking doors, casting hold portal, et cetera. I also like the fact that empty space often makes for a dungeon that is larger and has more paths, and thus greater opportunity for meaningful exploration, discover, and maybe even tactical options.

Lanefan · Nov 12, 2008

With a low-level dungeon like N1, space is kind of essential just to separate the encounters so the inhabitants don't all rush to each others' defense and overwhelm the party.

At higher level, the "space" in a dungeon might not at first seem so obvious, but it's there: the area where the grunts live. Take out the grunts (should be relatively trivial) and there you go; you have some space and a base to work from. And at really high level you have those twin problem-solvers teleport and planeshift.

That, and I tend to think that dungeons were designed by those who built them to be most convenient for those who lived there. In other words, the kitchen would be next to the mess hall rather than 150' worth of twisty passages away. (I can't remember how many times I've altered maps in 1e modules to straighten out passages...)

Lanefan

Wik · Nov 12, 2008

See, I like post-apocalyptic games, because you can explain away those twisty passages - the rest of the ruins have long since collapsed, or are irradiated, etc.

But yeah, space in a dungeon is awesome. I'm altering a few dungeons in Spellgard to put in some more exploration-themed areas, and I think adding open space is a good idea - thanks for the tip.

(every single player in my group is currently addicted to Fallout 3, and we're all explorers when we play it. So, I'm trying to cash in on that and feed my players' sense of exploration - so far, it's working).

el-remmen · Nov 12, 2008

Mark me as down with lots of space as well. . . As Philo Jura said, pursuit and evasion can be important part of my games - and also don't forget that empty space can help build tension and as the encounters shift through these areas - it allows the PCs (and NPCs) to try non-standard tactics, attempt crazy ideas, hide, recoup, try to fool or deceive foes, etc. . .

Also, as far as I'm concerned 'Against the Cult of the Reptile God' is the best module ever made - though I am not too sure about using it as an introductory (i.e. 1st level) adventure - as it was 2nd & 3rd level PCs in 2E when I ran it had a hard time - being captured once during it, and later suffering nearly a TPK (only 2 PCs and 1 NPC walked out of the dungeon alive)

Chainsaw · Nov 12, 2008

Sounds like a great module. I will have to find a way to squeeze it into the B1/B2/T1 trio that I have been planning for my 1E campaign.

Speaking of space and flexibility, B1 doesn't even have specific beasts/treasure attached to each room (there's just a list in the back). The DM looks at the list (if he wants) and matches the beast/treasure to whatever room he wants. It would be very easy to just ignore the list and adapt the dungeon to whatever play level you wanted, which is cool. Plus, Carr doesn't recommend filling every room with a beast, which is consistent with comments here about N1.

Anyway, I LOVE the the unstocked dungeon feature, as it dosn't clutter up the front with stuff I may not even going to use (maybe I make this a bandit hideout, not a haven for goblinoids). So, I avoid potentially cluttering monster description, but I still get room descriptions (who the heck really wants to write up the previous owner's mistress' bed and nightstand descriptions, for example?).

bert1000 · Nov 12, 2008

Chainsaw, it is a good one. The plot is pretty local though (like B2) so I'd run it say after B2 and before T1 (especially if you are doing T1-4).

el-remmen, I think it is for 1st-3rd level characters but as in all early AD&D modules it is meant for a large party of "4-7 1st - 3rd level characters". So you are right that 4 1st level characters are likely overmatched.

As for space, I agree with all of your reasons why space is good -- tension, pursuit/evasion, and sense of exploration. I think the exploration part and sense of wonder is the most important for me.

justanobody · Nov 12, 2008

Red Herrings are always great for adventures, including but not limited to extra rooms.

Not only giving players a chance to find a place to rest or plan, they also offer a richer world.

ExploderWizard · Nov 12, 2008

el-remmen said:
Also, as far as I'm concerned 'Against the Cult of the Reptile God' is the best module ever made - though I am not too sure about using it as an introductory (i.e. 1st level) adventure - as it was 2nd & 3rd level PCs in 2E when I ran it had a hard time - being captured once during it, and later suffering nearly a TPK (only 2 PCs and 1 NPC walked out of the dungeon alive)

I wouldn't go so far as to say its the best module ever, but it is a pretty good one. The naga encounter requires the help of a higher level NPC from town to survive as written. That kind of steals the thunder from the PC's and makes the adventure a tad less than perfect. There is heck of a lot of great material for the page count and thats what matters most.

the Jester · Nov 12, 2008

Oooh, when I ran my "retro 1e" game about a year ago, I pulled this bad boy out. Holy crap it's good!

We had an early tpk/seduced into the cult though. Shrug. Happens.