Proposal 1 - dragon#364 made legal

covaithe · Nov 18, 2008

This is all very interesting, but there's no actual proposal on the table to do anything about Oversized. The proposal at hand relates to the warforged article and the wizard illusion powers article.

I started reading the warforged article more carefully this morning, and I noticed that in addition to beefing up Warforged Resolve, it also grants the 'forged an extra +1 racial bonus to Will defense. Is that really necessary?

I've not finished reading the whole article, just the race section, but I'm seeing this as a boost to a race that was already pretty decent. I'm wary of power creep.

Atanatotatos · Nov 18, 2008

Covaithe, I think the best way to get an idea is to compare the race with a core race (preferrably one suited for similar classes), putting every single kind of benefit one next to the other, like I did before in my example. Maybe it's a pretty obvious method, maybe it's not the best but heh...
I don't feel the Dragon Warforged is overpowered (for example, yes, it gets that +1 to Will, but its two stats bonus boost the same defense). Also, while the MM one is a "decent" race, I'd say that all the core races are definitely more than "decent"...

elecgraystone · Nov 18, 2008

covaithe said:
I started reading the warforged article more carefully this morning, and I noticed that in addition to beefing up Warforged Resolve, it also grants the 'forged an extra +1 racial bonus to Will defense. Is that really necessary?

The +1 defense is pretty much standard for races with stat pluses in the same defense. Look at the Eladrin. They get a +1 racial bonus to Will defense too.

Atanatotatos said:
I don't feel the Dragon Warforged is overpowered (for example, yes, it gets that +1 to Will, but its two stats bonus boost the same defense). Also, while the MM one is a "decent" race, I'd say that all the core races are definitely more than "decent"...

I have to agree with this. Before the warforged article, I'd have picked dwarf hands down every time for a defender role character. Now it's a toss up. To me, that means it's about the same power level.

Atanatotatos · Nov 18, 2008

And then, think about it:Warforged resolve grants temp hp 3+half lvl, which at 1st lvl would be...3. Sure, you get the save and the healing if you're bloodied... but, even at 30th lvl, we're talking 18 hp+18temp. The surge value for a warforged defender should be at least in the fifties...
The other features are flavorful, but mechanically not particularly powerful. The thing that makes the Dragon wargorged shine is the racial feats. But you have to take quite a few before they really get great.

elecgraystone · Nov 18, 2008

I like the fact that they get a defensive/healing racial power. It really fits them being constructs and fits wonderfully for a defender role. The feats are just the icing on the cake. It really helps keep them up and defending. With the three feats and 30th, it's 23+con temp hp, 18 hp and two saves for using your resolve. Totaled, it's not far off that 50's mark for surges and the saves really are a boon. (A stunned and blind defender isn't defending much)

Atanatotatos · Nov 18, 2008

It's all true, but let's not forget that at that level a simple healing word is healing you for your surge value +6d6...
It's a nice power to have, but nothing groundbreaking.
Even the feature that lets you stay stable in any casewhen you're dying... it's great, really, but seriously, a defender should never be left dying, so it is certainly very stuational.

covaithe · Nov 18, 2008

Thanks guys, this is helpful discussion. Still reading in snatched moments here and there.

What do people think of the wizard illusion powers article?

Atanatotatos · Nov 18, 2008

covaithe said:
Thanks guys, this is helpful discussion. Still reading in snatched moments here and there.

What do people think of the wizard illusion powers article?

Too good to skip.
A couple of powers are slightly more powerful than others of their level (if i remember the names right, maze of mirrors and illusonary wall), but not broken certainly.
But more than anything, they really add to the wizard's flavor.

elecgraystone · Nov 18, 2008

I liked the new wizard powers. It gives them a set of powers that attack will. It gives the wizard a bit of versitility without an increase in raw power. Two thumbs up.

stonegod · Nov 19, 2008

I should comment on the warforged powers, but I'm a bit too busy now. Short of it: It makes them on par w/ the other PC races (as opposed to a MM-race approximation). Nothing broken AFAIK.