Proposal 1 - dragon#364 made legal

Atanatotatos · Nov 20, 2008

Uhmm... Well, For and Will will probably be similar. Ref will probably be higher for the Ranger. But, unless you max Dex on a melee ranger, Ac will be higher. And Hp will be too, because fighters have better starting hp and more healing surge, and will take toughness. And probably spend more on Con, since it doesn't necessarily need dexterity.
Another bad thing about double swords (but i'm not really sure here, i didn't check) is that you might be able to apply weapon focus bonus dmg twice, since both ends have both light blade and heavy blade proficiency. Honestly, you are right in your post, but when I think of all the stances that fighters get that will augment dmg on every attack, I think I change my mind again.

Honestly, I think the Tempest is all right. But I really, really don't like those double weapons. I find them quite unfair. (all the more since you can wield one-handed weapons offhand, with a ranger multiclass feat)

elecgraystone · Nov 20, 2008

Atanatotatos said:
Uhmm... Well, For and Will will probably be similar. Ref will probably be higher for the Ranger. But, unless you max Dex on a melee ranger, Ac will be higher. And Hp will be too, because fighters have better starting hp and more healing surge, and will take toughness. And probably spend more on Con, since it doesn't necessarily need dexterity.

Well if we are taking other feats, the ranger would pick up 2 weapon defense for +1 ac and ref. And a tempest is going to need some dex for feats for heavy and light blades, scale specialization etc. so he's not nerfing dex a whole lot. I don't see a big difference one way of the other on hp.

Atanatotatos said:
Another bad thing about double swords (but i'm not really sure here, i didn't check) is that you might be able to apply weapon focus bonus dmg twice, since both ends have both light blade and heavy blade proficiency. Honestly, you are right in your post, but when I think of all the stances that fighters get that will augment dmg on every attack, I think I change my mind again.

Feat bonus don't add, so no worries on multiple focus feats. As far as the stances, the hunters quarry is going to keep going up and then you move up the dice to d8's with a feat. I don't think the ranger is losing any ground.

Atanatotatos said:
Honestly, I think the Tempest is all right. But I really, really don't like those double weapons. I find them quite unfair. (all the more since you can wield one-handed weapons offhand, with a ranger multiclass feat)

If anyone got a power boost from the double sword it was the rogue. They now have a real light blade. I'll be honest I don't see them being the least bit unfair to anyone. The damage output with one comes out perfectly in line with other weapons/classes.

Take a ranger. For a feat he could use bastard swords or he could use a double sword. D8's and a +1 ac and ref or d10's.
Take fighter. For a feat you can have d10 and use a shield, d8'd and +1 ac and ref , or a d12 high crit.
I just don't see unfair.

Atanatotatos · Nov 20, 2008

elecgraystone said:
Well if we are taking other feats, the ranger would pick up 2 weapon defense for +1 ac and ref. And a tempest is going to need some dex for feats for heavy and light blades, scale specialization etc. so he's not nerfing dex a whole lot. I don't see a big difference one way of the other on hp.
Feat bonus don't add, so no worries on multiple focus feats. As far as the stances, the hunters quarry is going to keep going up and then you move up the dice to d8's with a feat. I don't think the ranger is losing any ground.
If anyone got a power boost from the double sword it was the rogue. They now have a real light blade. I'll be honest I don't see them being the least bit unfair to anyone. The damage output with one comes out perfectly in line with other weapons/classes.

Take a ranger. For a feat he could use bastard swords or he could use a double sword. D8's and a +1 ac and ref or d10's.
Take fighter. For a feat you can have d10 and use a shield, d8'd and +1 ac and ref , or a d12 high crit.
I just don't see unfair.

Two-weapon defense has two-weapon fighting as a prerequisite.

Look, Elec, the more I read your posts, the more I get convinced that you're right, but I keep finding reasons not to.
For example, I really don't agree in that the dmg from Cleave makes it on par with Dual strike dmg wise. I think doing 13 avg dmg to one foe is better than doing 9,5 dmg, and 4 to another.

Oh, and about rangers, I forgot a very important thing. The fighter will always have that +1 to hit more on offhands.

You're right about weapon focus. I was forgetting it's a feat bonus.

elecgraystone · Nov 20, 2008

Atanatotatos said:
Two-weapon defense has two-weapon fighting as a prerequisite.

So the ranger will get a +1 damage too. How is that bad? It's not like the fighter that 'will take toughness' at first since he's using a feat for double sword.

Atanatotatos said:
For example, I really don't agree in that the dmg from Cleave makes it on par with Dual strike dmg wise. I think doing 13 avg dmg to one foe is better than doing 9,5 dmg, and 4 to another.

Is it better when you are fighting 4 minions? Both cleave and twin strike can hit two people, the tempests can't. Or what if you have a boss and minions surounding you. Cleave looks pretty good, hurt the boss and kill a minion.

Now when you are fighting JUST ONE single foe, sure dual strike beats out cleave, but not twin strike. How often does that happen? That's like saying a wizards damage sucks because his area attack does weak damage against one target. If it's just one target then you can do 9.5 and push the target one square (or deal 2 damage on a miss).

Bottom line 9.5 damage to one target and 4 to another adds up to 13 total damage for the round. Is it better some times to do all of it to one person, sure. Is it better to so it to different people some times, sure. I don't find that having tempests better at single targets a problem when they do less to multiple targets and can't push(tide of iron). Looking at JUST single target damage isn't a fair standard.

Atanatotatos said:
Oh, and about rangers, I forgot a very important thing. The fighter will always have that +1 to hit more on offhands.

Yep, it's the fighter class feature the tempest will use. The fighter hits more often and the ranger does more damage. Still seems fair.

Atanatotatos · Nov 21, 2008

Sigh. Forget the tempest and the double sword. They found an infinite action loop in MP.
Hope they fix it fast.

POSTE EDITED:But, Elec, the point is, what you say is the truth, but a partial truth. It's almost always better to deal more dmg to a single foe than less dmg to two. The exception, obviously, is minions. But, eh, do choose cleave as your second at-will. So you have a single-foe attack, and a minion clearing attack.

About the ranger... well, actually the proble, I think, is we're thinking about 1st level. In reality, you'll be transforming that +1 to hit into more dmg with power attack. You'll be taking the feat that lets you add Wis to dmg on marked targets. You'll be taking Pit fighter that lets you add Wis to dmg to all attacks. You'll be taking stances that add to your dmg for the whole encounter, every attack. And a douple-type weapon, which you can exploit for more dmg. Also, to make an example for a 30th lvl character, the spare 1,125,000 gps you will have to spend will make a difference. To offset the disatvantage, just choose a property that gives a benefit not related to any end of the weapon. Like Berserk, that is awesome on a double weapon.
And you'll have higher Ac, higher Fort, more hp (toughness or nor, those 3 healing surges more translate into a lot more of hps); and better class features, yes. Because while you're "less of a defender" than a sword-and-shield fighter, you're not less of a defender than a two-handed fighter, and definitely more of a striker.
Really, I think Tempest really doesn't need double swords. Let them take those awesome feat to enhance its dmg, don't give it for free.

elecgraystone · Nov 22, 2008

We'll have to agree to disagree.

For everything you point out about tempests as they level up, the ranger is ALSO doing the same thing. NOTHING stops the ranger from taking Pitfighter. The ranger is getting MORE quarry damage which is MUCH more than you'll be seeing out of those "stances that add to your dmg for the whole encounter, every attack." Quarry gets added every attack round you hit and the ranger can always multiclass and get those stances AND quarry. You are also forgetting that the higher the levels go, the farther behind the tempest gets in damage. A 7[w] attack does 7d8+2 for him and 7d10 for the ranger. 18 more damage for the ranger JUST on base.

As far as the extra 1,125,000 gps, sure they could do that. It's just as likely they'd want two different enchantments. Someone that wants to 'exploit' the extra money is letting it pick what single enchantment. He has limited picks to get that extra money. I see the character losing a great deal of flexibility doing this.

Better class features? really? For a striker type character? Combat challenge and superiority for a striker type? Over quarry? Those are better class features for a real defender type.

I Also disagree that the tempest will have "higher Ac, higher Fort, more hp (toughness or nor, those 3 healing surges more translate into a lot more of hps)" On average, sure. But the ranger does more damage, has a higher ref and a LOT more mobility with ranger powers on average.

Bottom line, I've looked at all your posts and I haven't seen where the tempest, as a whole with a double sword, is better or more powerful than the other fighters or a ranger with special weapon. You haven't proved to me how double swords for a tempest are unbalanced vs a twin bastard sword ranger, a bastardsword and heavy shield fighter or a fullblade fighter. Sure he's the 'striker' of the fighters at first level. But with a 7[w] attack? He's better off than the fullblade guy? 7d8+2 vs 7d12? Seriously, the higher you get the farther behind the tempest gets in damage.

Atanatotatos · Nov 22, 2008

Why do you point at single-attack, high-w-multiplier powers? Look at powers that give multiple attacks. You can only apply quarry once per round; you can apply all those bonuses to dmg on every attack; there lies the difference.
You are mistake. This is not a striker-type; it has the features of a defender (and does it as well as a great weapon fighter) and the dmg of a striker. You have to adapt the powers to the build: a single 7w attack is obviously not good for a tempest; blade cascade, on the contrary, is great.
I'm not saying it's "better" than the other options; I'm saying tempest does a great job by itself; the double sword gives it an unfair advantage because without it a tempest has to actually pay (in feats) to get some of those benefits for free, like equal dmg on main and offhand.

Anyway, sure, we can agree to disagree.