What level of support do you want in your Adventure Path?

MerricB said:

No, they didn't. The term "Adventure Path" was coined long before Shackled City and was used in relation to the original 3E modules (Sunless Citadel, etc.) Paizo/Dungeon were the first to commercially use the term for their adventures, but they certainly didn't invent the term.

Cheers!

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Though in Morrus' defense, I think you could argue that Paizo certainly popularized the term.

But hey there Merric, what are your thoughts on the original topic? How muich background support do you need for your AP?

Personally, I like the amount of support offered by Paizo for the later Pathfinder paths - a Player's Guide to the path, plus a product describing the core region (either "Guide to Korvosa" or the first "Pathfinder Companion", which details Riddleport amongst other things), plus one or two other support products (Harrow Deck, Item Cards, Map Folio).

Crucially, none of these are required for successful use of the Adventure Path, but I find that having some or all of them available adds to the experience.

With the 4e path intentionally using a very undefined setting, the needs for support material are significantly reduced - no need for a setting guide if there's no setting to speak of. Still, a Player's Guide would be nice for introducing players to the campaign. Oh, and a fairly detailed synopsis of the campaign is a must, IMO.

As an absolute minimum:

A map with all of the locations that will be used in the Adventure Path with descriptions about these locations (can use this information for DM created side adventures or for incorporating other adventures in between AP adventures, helps with foreshadowing and having campaign applicable news and rumours). Doesn't necessarily need to have a full blown campaign guide, but needs to have detailed info about the areas in the AP to aid in the DM placing it in their own world or in another published world.

A detailed, adventure-by-adventure synopsis with story, plots, levels, and npc's (not the weak, barely useable one WoTC put out for Scales of War).


With the amount of adventures I have (dungeon mag, modules, etc.) and other Adventure Paths that are available, any AP that doesn't include the above is just not worth my time or money.

El Mahdi said:

As an absolute minimum:

A map with all of the locations that will be used in the Adventure Path with descriptions about these locations (can use this information for DM created side adventures or for incorporating other adventures in between AP adventures, helps with foreshadowing and having campaign applicable news and rumours). Doesn't necessarily need to have a full blown campaign guide, but needs to have detailed info about the areas in the AP to aid in the DM placing it in their own world or in another published world.

A detailed, adventure-by-adventure synopsis with story, plots, levels, and npc's (not the weak, barely useable one WoTC put out for Scales of War).


With the amount of adventures I have (dungeon mag, modules, etc.) and other Adventure Paths that are available, any AP that doesn't include the above is just not worth my time or money.

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I agree, to finally put my own thoughts down on the topic.

WIthout a full blown campaign setting, the need for support with the background is not as high.. so I wouldn't expect as much from Scales of War as I do from a Paizo AP.. but I am finding I wish we had more than what we're getting right now.

Admiral Caine said:

But, I think you're considering the "big picture" from too far away in terms of what the WOTC forum posters were complaining about.

They weren't asking for an entire campaign setting, but information about the town and interesting/prominant NPCs to be found there. Characters that they PCs might interact with, depending on the taste of the GM.

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You're right, I might think "to big".

My question back to you would be: does that much detail constitute an entire setting, which then might never be used again as you pointed out, or is just what is required to give the ongoing story some depth, customizable hooks, and some flavor?

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As a DM, I always like new ideas to test out. But I am not sure if I wouldn't prefer an entirely different scenario over fleshing out an existing one. I might not even use the adventure (path) in question anyway. Fleshing out some NPCs or giving me more background information to a town is not of much use if I don't use the NPC or the town in the first place, and creating an entirely different NPC and town might be of more use. But I am not sure - depending on how you add the information, they might be useful on their own. In context of Dungeon/DDI adventure path - I already have access to the town or NPC in the first place, so I would gain little from some extra details, but if it is a separate product, I would get an NPC I might not have known about in the first place.

Mustrum_Ridcully said:

You're right, I might think "to big".


As a DM, I always like new ideas to test out. But I am not sure if I wouldn't prefer an entirely different scenario over fleshing out an existing one. I might not even use the adventure (path) in question anyway. Fleshing out some NPCs or giving me more background information to a town is not of much use if I don't use the NPC or the town in the first place, and creating an entirely different NPC and town might be of more use. But I am not sure - depending on how you add the information, they might be useful on their own. In context of Dungeon/DDI adventure path - I already have access to the town or NPC in the first place, so I would gain little from some extra details, but if it is a separate product, I would get an NPC I might not have known about in the first place.

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That is a fair comment. I would point out that the town has advanced many years from the original product that inspired it. Though, I don't know to what degree, since I don't own the Red Hand of Doom.

I am not trying to be a DDI Salesman, but the first few chapters and support articles (such as they are) of Scales of War are free, if you wish to check them out.

Admiral Caine said:

I am not trying to be a DDI Salesman, but the first few chapters and support articles (such as they are) of Scales of War are free, if you wish to check them out.

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I think I will give the honor of DMing Scales of War to another member of my group. He already is DMing it for a second group (he's trying to acquire us some new players).

As a DDI salesman, you're too late, I already payed my 12 month subscription (and so did the aforementioned DM).

Adventure Path and detail

With The Rituals of Choice Adventure Path, we already had the loose structure of a setting from Monte Cook's The Land of the Diamond Throne, so we decided it could use more detail. This involved a Player's Guide and a Campaign Guide for the GM.

I also wanted GMs to be able to leave the path, to "sandbox" their own way about the campaign saga, this is what the detail is for, so that you can go your own way. So that when a player goes right instead of left, you know what is likely to be around that corner.

The really nice thing about a patronage project, the patrons tell you how much they want or don't want.

I understand the complaints brought up on the WotC boards. The biggest issue people (myself included) have with Scales of War is the lack of a detailed enough overview/summary for the DM at the START of the campaign. I would like to run the AP for my group (having enjoyed running Shackled City to its conclusion), but currently am not able to get enough of a sense of the direction of the AP beyond the already released adventures.

At a minimum, the AP should provide the DM an overview of the overall plot, main villain and major plot-points of the campaign. A couple of paragraphs of description for each adventure, so a DM knows what settings, events, villains and major NPCs are going to be involved.

The flaw of Scales of War is, after 5 adventures, I still have no real idea of what the background plot is. No idea who the villain is, why anything is occuring, or what to expect next. I discovered one of the worst things a DM can do for the players is withhold information (in my experience), and it is worse by a factor of 10 to do this to the DM. With this AP, there is zero ability to foreshadow, or plan changes to the AP. It has taken 5 adventures to start tying loose threads together. Waiting until adventure 5 to come out before I know why a villain was doing something in adventure 1 is just not workable.

Worse, during one adventure, the writer actually had to ret-con an encounter in a previous adventure, because the NPC was supposed to have an item the PC's need. This kind of adventure design really hurts the ability of a DM to play out the adventure on a month-by-month basis. My only saving grace is it is still going to be many months before I even consider starting Scales of War, so I have time for WotC to release more adventures. I don't see how the AP, in its current form, is DM-able. Despite WotC's denials, it really feels like they started writing the Adventure Path without a working background or overall plot (although at least one adventure author claims this info exists, DM's just can't see it).

Now, one explanation I've read is that WotC doesn't want to spoil the storyline for player or DM, but that's hardly a good excuse. Would you not let a director read the script to a movie they are directing until the day each scene is shot? Or a conductor see the music before the night of the performance? This is what's happening for Scales of War DMs. I understand no one wants players reading these details, but if a player wants to spoil themselves, they'll do it whether it's in advance, or month by month.

Player support is also a must. Paizo did this great with Age of Worms and Savage Tides, with their Wormfood and Savage Tidings articles. I wish WotC would do the same with Scales of War. Any AP should provide as much player support as DM.

A good example is meaningful character backgrounds. Shackled city had interesting character backgrounds that were tied directly to the plot of the campaign (at least in the hardcover release). My DM for Age of Worms prepared his own backgrounds for that campaign. It has really allowed us to tie the PC's to the plot. Scales of War has backgrounds, but many unfortunately, feel very generic. A few mention some places or individuals, but again, since we have no overview, I have no idea if they will come into play in the campaign.

Overall, an Adventure Path should be well-planned in advance, provide interesting hooks for PC's and provide the DM with as much background information as possible. I felt having Shackled City as a hardcover provided me perfect details on the campaign. From my understanding the overview provided Age of Worms was also excellent. And the Player's Guide for Savage Tides (Sasserine) was very useful for players.

I don't necessarily need all the campaign setting details hammered out, but if an NPC or location plays an important role in the AP, detail should be provided, and as early as possible.

Admiral Caine said:

But hey there Merric, what are your thoughts on the original topic? How muich background support do you need for your AP?

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Not too much.

Oddly enough, the initial background support offered by Paizo for PCs in both Age of Worms and especially Savage Tide detracted from the APs in my opinion. And, yes, I've run them both.

The trouble was that Paizo spent a great deal of effort in detailing places that weren't ultimately used in the APs that much, especially for Savage Tide. So, character creation focused on that... and then discovered that the AP path took them away from it (almost at once in ST).

Consider also the organisations you could belong to in Savage Tide (using the rules from Player's Handbook 2). How exactly did your deeds on the Isle of Dread and the planes relate back to these organisations in Sasserine that never saw you after the second or third adventure?

I want there to be some background information. I really want to know where the AP is going, and to think that the integration between the various parts works. I like having enough information about relevant NPCs that I can role-play them properly.

I haven't been reading the Scales of War AP,so I can't comment on it; however, the H series of Wizards adventures have given pretty much an ideal amount of information for me to run them as linked adventures, although I'd prefer just a slight increase in background material for NPCs.

Cheers!