Forked Thread: The Great Wheel

Forked from: 4E being immune to criticism (forked from Sentimentality And D&D...)


What I really hate is the fact that it is also wrong to not enjoy the fluff. Guys... let's admit the fact that the Great Wheel was sort of... ehh... but that this whole Elemental Chaos/Astral Sea/Domain thing seems just as bad. However, the Wheel made a little more sense in a planar geography sense (you could 'cross over' to planes which are near, the use of portals) than the idea that the planes have become a Spelljammer's wonderland.

Yeah, the standard setting in 4e leaves quite a bit to be desired ("No sir. I don't like it."). But that's not really what I'd call a major issue, considering that you can slap a campaign setting on it and your problems are solved. I've got ten different homebrew cosmologies I could use, and none of them were ever impacted by the Great Wheel, so I doubt they'll be impacted by the new standard cosmology.

This almost sounds like it could be a discussion, so I'll chime in. I don't care for the Great Wheel, but I really like 4E's cosmology. One of the best things 4E has done IMO. The problem with the Great Wheel is that it is a metaphysical thing that is made to be read and thought about, but the too many of the places it describes really aren't interesting places to go. 4E's cosmology is designed around making the planes destinations that are interesting to actually go to. What use are the planes if it isn't interesting to go there?
 

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Scribble

First Post
I never really had a problem with the Great Wheel... It didn't cause anger in me or anything. I just found it kind of eh...

I'm lking the new cosmology a lot, and find it to be much more similar to how I saw the cosmology in my campaigns throughout my time as a DM.

I like the concept of an upperworld and an underworld. There might be an infinite number of heavens, and hells, but there an upper world and an underworld... Just works for me.

Plus I really like the feywild mortal real shadowfell thing... Kind of Taoist in a way. :p

We have th echos of what were, what is, and what will be... Land before time... Filled qwith potential, energy and wildness.. land in Time where we struggle to make what we want it to be, and then land at the end of it all just before it ceases to be entirely filled with coldness decay and death.

Just really works for me.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
4E's cosmology is designed around making the planes destinations that are interesting to actually go to. What use are the planes if it isn't interesting to go there?

Which is odd to me, considering that one of the major points of the Planescape setting was to make the planes interesting places to go and accessable at almost any level (yet without taking away the inherent hostility and danger posed by many posed - no handholding like at this level tier you can go to this plane and at this next level tier you can go to these other planes, etc). Part of the entire design behind it was to make the planes awesome, evocative places that weren't just big extraplanar dungeons to kill things, but could have that mix of depth and metaphysics that it tried to emphasize during the 2e run.

So far 4e hasn't realeased anything in any detail to really say if it accomplishes any of the same, either more so or less so. Given the level of flavor text in 4e thus far, I'll be surprised as all heck if the 4e MotP has as much detail as the 3e MotP (which while useful, was largely a Cliffs Notes version of Planescape).
 

Mallus

Legend
I like the 4e cosmology well enough to use it as a source of inspiration. For example, the idea of the Astral Sea directly inspired the overall form of our new homebrew, which take place on a thin strip of mundane land situated between the Astral Sea and a wild landscape that corresponds to the interior of the mind of God.

Which is more than I can say about any of the cosmological musing found in previous editions, which I just junked when it came time to write a new homebrew. Full disclosure: I never owned nor read Planescape, which I hear is pretty good.
 

Fallen Seraph

First Post
I quite like the new cosmology especially the Shadowfell and Feywild. Mainly because they both harkon back to mythology and also show influence from numerous modern fantasy elements; be it ghost-novels, fey-fantasy novels, WoD, etc.

The old-cosmology never really inspired me, despite being a Planescape fan. But this was solely because of Sigil, which I feel will do just as fine in 4e (I personally never brought in the alignment-issue much in my Planescape, the philosophies and ideals expressed in the numerous factions of Sigil operated outside of alignment in my games).
 

I am, overall, pretty neutral about the Great Wheel. There were a few interesting things in it - some of the planes, for examples. (Mechanus?)
One of the drawbacks I see is that it seems all so far removed, on more then one level. For one, it doesn't have anything to do with real-world mythology (though individual planes, might the entire system does not). Many of the planes are basically unhospitable and mostly uninteresting.

The 4E cosmology resonated stronger with me. I love the Feywild and Shadowfell - reflections of our world, parallel and not parallel. The closest equivalents in the Great Wheel seem to be the Ethreal, the Astral and the Shadow Plane, and each of them felt very lifeless and empty, at least going by the fluff I read. The Feywild in my mind is basically a giant forest or jungle, but still with some humanoid influences. The Shadowfell is a dark reflection, and while it might be more lifeless then the Feywild, it still clearly has a visible landscape and inhabitants.

The Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos do not resonate that strong with me, though I definitely like the idea of presenting the Astral Sea as the sky (with possibly the stars at night being astral dominions?) and the Elemental Chaos below (even below the Underdark).
 

Lonely Tylenol

First Post
While wandering about looking for sparrows this summer, having read some Moorcock shortly beforehand, I came up with the following brief sketch of a cosmology/pantheon based on the feywild/shadowfell idea:

The feywild and the shadowfell were once the only realities, themselves both sentient planes akin to overgods. Somehow, they collided with each other, creating a kind of big bang event that led to the prime material (for lack of a better name). The feywild is a place of chaos and eternal creation, in which very little is fixed, form is mutable, and change is the primary motivation of all matter and life. Before the collision, it was much more akin to a faerie version of the far realm, in which madness and chaos ruled and primal energies were not just important, but the only game in town. The shadowfell is a place of ending, decay, and eternal silence. Before the collision it was a plane of eternal emptiness and timelessness...infinite law.

When they collided, these entities changed each other, and created a plane the existed only as a subordinate reality, derivative of its parent planes. It was full of life, caused by the creative forces of the feywild, but these entities were mostly fixed in form and could die, thanks to the influence of the shadowfell. The feywild's chaos was somewhat mitigated by the infinite law of the shadowfell, and vice versa. Rather than being a plane of unlimited change, the feywild became merely chaotic. Instead of timeless emptiness, the shadowfell became an emptying, a place of wasting away into entropy, but infected with dark, shadowy forms of life like a mould infects an opened jar of jam.

The planes themselves, infinitely sentient, act like unapproachable gods. They do not answer prayers, and do not pursue agendas in the prime. They do however hate each other for corrupting their previous purity. Mortals honour the feywild as Nature, and she is worshipped by druids and the like. She is also seen as the source of all creativity and change, and is invoked when attempting these activities. They honour the shadowfell as Death, and also as Rust, the end of temporary things. While they ignore mortal prayers, they are formidable sources of power, which can be tapped into by adepts.

From the energies of the impact were also created a pantheon of gods, which I won't get into, but which represented a series of opposites. One god in particular, Asmodeus, was in charge of dying, in a grim reaper-like position. Knowing that his portfolio was powerful and unassailable, he challenged the shadowfell for control over death itself, and the plane punished him by trapping him in a prison deep within the plane itself. Minor beings that served him were turned into the devils, and imprisoned with him. Turning his eyes to the other gods, to prevent future treachery he linked their power to their portfolios.

The gods quickly learned that their existence was dependent on the presence of these opposites in the world, and many of them died or were destroyed by each other in the early days. Entire concepts, as powerful and meaningful as up and down, good and evil, hot and cold, were wiped from the prime, leaving only the opposites we are familiar with today. Some gods destroyed each other to steal their portfolios as insurance against annihilation, and others cultivated their existence by promoting their portfolios in sentient beings, concepts like love and hate.

Asmodeus has not abandoned his plans, however. He believes that the power of the feywild comes from her creation of souls, some of which come to inhabit bodies in the prime. The shadowfell is the destination of these souls, and he gains his power from their destruction. Asmodeus believes that by collecting enough souls he can eventually amass enough power to usurp the shadowfell's portfolio, thereby freeing himself and replacing the sentience of the plane he is trapped inside. Because of the lawful, but corrupted nature of the shadowfell, the devils are bound by rules, but imperfect rules with loopholes: devils can be freed by performing the appropriate rituals, but only for short periods of time. Asmodeus makes sure that mortals learn these rituals, and provides them with power in exchange for souls, using devils as intermediaries.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
In 1e the Great Wheel was an example cosmology. I take 4e's cosmology to be an example. I didn't always use the Great Wheel when running 1e through 3e; I wouldn't feel constrained by the 4e cosmology if I wanted to run 4e.


RC
 

Voadam

Legend
The problem with the Great Wheel is that it is a metaphysical thing that is made to be read and thought about, but the too many of the places it describes really aren't interesting places to go. 4E's cosmology is designed around making the planes destinations that are interesting to actually go to. What use are the planes if it isn't interesting to go there?

I know that is the design concept for 4e but I'm not sure of the difference between going to the abyss in 1e-3e vs. 4e. Same for going to a god's 4e astral realm versus their 1e-3e planar realm.

Elemental chaos is not solid elements anymore and they eliminated a lot of planes but I'm struggling a bit to see the real difference in going to a 4e plane versus a 3e one.

Outer planes became astral dominions except the abyss which was changed to a corrupted inner plane section.

When I think of the D&D planes I generally think of the outer planes so I don't see the changes there as that significant.
 

In 1e the Great Wheel was an example cosmology. I take 4e's cosmology to be an example. I didn't always use the Great Wheel when running 1e through 3e; I wouldn't feel constrained by the 4e cosmology if I wanted to run 4e.


RC
And that, too. The Great Wheel and the ... well... Astral Sea/POL are for me only examples on how a cosmology could look like. (I wonder if the 4E Manual of the Planes will also discuss this?)
 

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