Alternative to PCGen?
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Right now the old datafiles are well distributed amoungst many people, myself included, but we have been asked not to redistribute them while negotianions are under way with WotC to officially allow the return of the non-SRD material. I am willing to give them some time to achieve this.
Now that PCgen is OGL/d20 complient it can no longer be shut down. If after awhile WotC does not give permission, or it apears that they are dragging thier feet forever, I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing 4.x converted files begin to be traded away from the PCgen site much like the etool file distribution sites. Since these would be fan sites it becomes much more dificult for WotC to stop this both as a practical matter, and from a PR standpoint.
Now that PCgen is OGL/d20 complient it can no longer be shut down. If after awhile WotC does not give permission, or it apears that they are dragging thier feet forever, I wouldn't be surprised if you start seeing 4.x converted files begin to be traded away from the PCgen site much like the etool file distribution sites. Since these would be fan sites it becomes much more dificult for WotC to stop this both as a practical matter, and from a PR standpoint.
Couple of Things
I'm going to (attempt) to address a couple of different posts here...
1) Regardless of what people think (i.e. their opinions), no offense, but the only opinion that matters is WotC's. No amount of carping, whining, complaining, commenting, etc, is going to change that. WotC's definition of 'interactive' relates to the 'success or failure' which is why die rolling is a no-no for D20 compliance, yet random names are acceptable.
2) Older Data sets will work in newer versions of PCGen, they simply need to be run through the list converter avialable in the Menu option "Tools". This will convert most everything to the latest formats, but yes, there will still be some things that need to be done by hand.
3) No one that works on PCGen will give anyone any of the 'verboten' data sets. Ain't gonna happen and that is strictly taboo to ask for on the yahoo group.
4) The Yahoo group has calmed considerably since the first couple of weeks of seriously complaining. Only those that get really out of line get flamed. You may get sarcasm from some users granted, but we try to stiffle that as well. As for the 'This thread is closed, period' sorry, but that's the way it is for now. There are plenty of places now (welcome letter, letter sent every 2 weeks, web page, etc) that explain what's going on, what's happened, and what's next on the plate, so there really is no excuse/justificationto rehash conversations that are long gone.
5) You can like it or not like it, you can slam E-Tools, PCGen, WotC, etc to your hearts content, just not on the Yahoo group. The yahoo group used to be 99.99% friendly until after GenCon, then it dropped to 30%, and now it's back to about 95% and getting better. When things calm down back to previous levels then we can go back to being unmoderated.
6) And why the hell is everyone so focused on the WotC materials? You do realize before GenCon 50% of the material in PCGen was from 3rd party publishers? You know, those other guys that use the OGL as well?
They do have _some_ cool stuff. *grin* Sheesh people, we have so much stuff in PCGen now, and so much more waiting to go in (i.e. as we get time/more help to get them entered)... Don't be afraid to 'wean' yourself from WotC's splat books and explore some of the other great products out there, D20 is MUCH more than WotC.
We're trying to foster good relations with WotC, we've asked them the same questions we're getting asked, and giving the same answers we've gotten. Doesn't mean we like em either, but give me a break, how hard is it to roll some dice and enter the result manually? As for the XP, hate to break it to you, but it hasn't really done anything but show the minimum of your characters level for a while now, so that's not even a loss. Now at least you can enter in your own XP of the exact amount you want. We're also going to be adding a spot where you can manually put in how much you need for your next level as well. It doesn't do anything but display that information, but that's all most people need anyways.
The biggest gripe/whine/complaint/bi*** people have is the loss of all the wizards non-SRD books. Well ya know what? YOU can enter them yourself, that's the main point of PCGen, the fact that you can create your own list files. Is it easy? Some people think so, others think not. Doesn't require any programming experience, no funky expensive programs, just a simple text editor. And even that is going to become unnecessary soon, we've already started with a Deity editor within PCGen and we will be adding more editors over time, so everyone needs to chill out and relax.
We are talking to WotC about the other materials, but there are a lot of things beyond WotC saying 'yea sure go ahead' that have to be considered. And given the fact that EVERYONE said that PCGen would _NEVER_ be OGL AND D20 compliant, the fact that with a concerted effort to go the final mile (since we were 95% there already), we DID become so in 3 weeks and 6 days. Imagine that.
So relax, let us deal with WotC and see where it goes from there. There's no need to beat a dead horse into ashes. If you want to talk about OGL stuff, there's plenty of places to do so. Go visit the OGL forum (there's plenty of links here on EN World for it), THAT is the MOST apporpriate place for those types of conversations, NOT the PCGen Yahoo group.
I'm going to (attempt) to address a couple of different posts here...
1) Regardless of what people think (i.e. their opinions), no offense, but the only opinion that matters is WotC's. No amount of carping, whining, complaining, commenting, etc, is going to change that. WotC's definition of 'interactive' relates to the 'success or failure' which is why die rolling is a no-no for D20 compliance, yet random names are acceptable.
2) Older Data sets will work in newer versions of PCGen, they simply need to be run through the list converter avialable in the Menu option "Tools". This will convert most everything to the latest formats, but yes, there will still be some things that need to be done by hand.
3) No one that works on PCGen will give anyone any of the 'verboten' data sets. Ain't gonna happen and that is strictly taboo to ask for on the yahoo group.
4) The Yahoo group has calmed considerably since the first couple of weeks of seriously complaining. Only those that get really out of line get flamed. You may get sarcasm from some users granted, but we try to stiffle that as well. As for the 'This thread is closed, period' sorry, but that's the way it is for now. There are plenty of places now (welcome letter, letter sent every 2 weeks, web page, etc) that explain what's going on, what's happened, and what's next on the plate, so there really is no excuse/justificationto rehash conversations that are long gone.
5) You can like it or not like it, you can slam E-Tools, PCGen, WotC, etc to your hearts content, just not on the Yahoo group. The yahoo group used to be 99.99% friendly until after GenCon, then it dropped to 30%, and now it's back to about 95% and getting better. When things calm down back to previous levels then we can go back to being unmoderated.
6) And why the hell is everyone so focused on the WotC materials? You do realize before GenCon 50% of the material in PCGen was from 3rd party publishers? You know, those other guys that use the OGL as well?
They do have _some_ cool stuff. *grin* Sheesh people, we have so much stuff in PCGen now, and so much more waiting to go in (i.e. as we get time/more help to get them entered)... Don't be afraid to 'wean' yourself from WotC's splat books and explore some of the other great products out there, D20 is MUCH more than WotC.We're trying to foster good relations with WotC, we've asked them the same questions we're getting asked, and giving the same answers we've gotten. Doesn't mean we like em either, but give me a break, how hard is it to roll some dice and enter the result manually? As for the XP, hate to break it to you, but it hasn't really done anything but show the minimum of your characters level for a while now, so that's not even a loss. Now at least you can enter in your own XP of the exact amount you want. We're also going to be adding a spot where you can manually put in how much you need for your next level as well. It doesn't do anything but display that information, but that's all most people need anyways.
The biggest gripe/whine/complaint/bi*** people have is the loss of all the wizards non-SRD books. Well ya know what? YOU can enter them yourself, that's the main point of PCGen, the fact that you can create your own list files. Is it easy? Some people think so, others think not. Doesn't require any programming experience, no funky expensive programs, just a simple text editor. And even that is going to become unnecessary soon, we've already started with a Deity editor within PCGen and we will be adding more editors over time, so everyone needs to chill out and relax.
We are talking to WotC about the other materials, but there are a lot of things beyond WotC saying 'yea sure go ahead' that have to be considered. And given the fact that EVERYONE said that PCGen would _NEVER_ be OGL AND D20 compliant, the fact that with a concerted effort to go the final mile (since we were 95% there already), we DID become so in 3 weeks and 6 days. Imagine that.
So relax, let us deal with WotC and see where it goes from there. There's no need to beat a dead horse into ashes. If you want to talk about OGL stuff, there's plenty of places to do so. Go visit the OGL forum (there's plenty of links here on EN World for it), THAT is the MOST apporpriate place for those types of conversations, NOT the PCGen Yahoo group.
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Brown Jenkin
First Post
Re: Couple of Things
Why is die rolling that does not interactively connect to any field verboten? This is a topic that repeated is asked on Yahoo and has yet to recieve an answer. It has once more been asked this morning with the response because it is, when someone responded that they didn't feel the answer was enough the thread was closed. This subject realy needs its own thread.
Yes, but there are people out there that do not have the files to update even though they have the books.
I never said they would. And I agree that this needs to be the official position of PCgen, but that will not stop others.
As above there are still areas that need discussing but are not allowed. Dispite all those items, I only look online since I don't want my mailbox filled everyday and I have not recieved any of these, and I suspect others have not as well. as for what is going on I feel that I am well versed by having read 90% of all messages and I still believe that some questions have not been answered. As for statements like "There realy is no excuse/justification to rehash conversations that are long gone." this is incorrect and only contributes to the negative atmoshpere.
I hope things get back to normal but I would put the friendly scale at about 70% now.
People are focused because most DM's allow all WotC material but only selected 3rd party. Plus FR is by far the most popular campaign world.
I am willing to live with it for the most part. Has WotC denied permission to have a xp table period, even if the values are user inputed? Other games have set up alternate xp charts, are they in violation? It would be nice to have an xp table I have to only enter once rather than repeatedly for each character.
Great on the diety editor, but many people don't have the time to enter everything themselves.
I am pleased by your success so far, and never doubted your ability to achieve it. I hope that you get permission, and I am being patient.
I am relaxed, and waiting patiently for the results of your discussioins. I only presented a scenario of what may happen in the future.
So the OGL forum can answer questions about how OGL complience is being implemented in PCgen?
Mynex said:
Why is die rolling that does not interactively connect to any field verboten? This is a topic that repeated is asked on Yahoo and has yet to recieve an answer. It has once more been asked this morning with the response because it is, when someone responded that they didn't feel the answer was enough the thread was closed. This subject realy needs its own thread.
Mynex said:
Yes, but there are people out there that do not have the files to update even though they have the books.
Mynex said:
I never said they would. And I agree that this needs to be the official position of PCgen, but that will not stop others.
Mynex said:
As above there are still areas that need discussing but are not allowed. Dispite all those items, I only look online since I don't want my mailbox filled everyday and I have not recieved any of these, and I suspect others have not as well. as for what is going on I feel that I am well versed by having read 90% of all messages and I still believe that some questions have not been answered. As for statements like "There realy is no excuse/justification to rehash conversations that are long gone." this is incorrect and only contributes to the negative atmoshpere.
Mynex said:
I hope things get back to normal but I would put the friendly scale at about 70% now.
Mynex said:6) And why the hell is everyone so focused on the WotC materials? You do realize before GenCon 50% of the material in PCGen was from 3rd party publishers? You know, those other guys that use the OGL as well?
People are focused because most DM's allow all WotC material but only selected 3rd party. Plus FR is by far the most popular campaign world.
Mynex said:
I am willing to live with it for the most part. Has WotC denied permission to have a xp table period, even if the values are user inputed? Other games have set up alternate xp charts, are they in violation? It would be nice to have an xp table I have to only enter once rather than repeatedly for each character.
Mynex said:
Great on the diety editor, but many people don't have the time to enter everything themselves.
Mynex said:
I am pleased by your success so far, and never doubted your ability to achieve it. I hope that you get permission, and I am being patient.
Mynex said:
I am relaxed, and waiting patiently for the results of your discussioins. I only presented a scenario of what may happen in the future.
So the OGL forum can answer questions about how OGL complience is being implemented in PCgen?
drakhe
First Post
Re: Couple of Things
Sorry to snip most of your post (it's still there just a couple of posts higher ;-) )
For my 2 cents worth I would like to add: There are more programs about that deliver FUNCTIONALITY and no content, that content being provided by the community. Check out ARMYBUILDER. They've made a great wargame army list editor and that is distributed with hardly any data (if you download none, if you get the CD it might have the L5R Clan War material for which they have a license to distribute)
It hasen't stopped the community from creating dozens of data-sets for about any wargame out there.
So I'd like to simply say: stop whining, let the monkeys make the program better, take the included data as topping on the cake and look to the community for extra cheries. (or go make your own topping and cheries...)
PCGEN team: big cheer from me on a great program and a very appreciated effort to get allong with WOTC (I prefer you being friends with WOTC than WOTC getting you banned, so there... ;-)
Mynex said:
Sorry to snip most of your post (it's still there just a couple of posts higher ;-) )
For my 2 cents worth I would like to add: There are more programs about that deliver FUNCTIONALITY and no content, that content being provided by the community. Check out ARMYBUILDER. They've made a great wargame army list editor and that is distributed with hardly any data (if you download none, if you get the CD it might have the L5R Clan War material for which they have a license to distribute)
It hasen't stopped the community from creating dozens of data-sets for about any wargame out there.
So I'd like to simply say: stop whining, let the monkeys make the program better, take the included data as topping on the cake and look to the community for extra cheries. (or go make your own topping and cheries...)
PCGEN team: big cheer from me on a great program and a very appreciated effort to get allong with WOTC (I prefer you being friends with WOTC than WOTC getting you banned, so there... ;-)
Twin Rose
First Post
bushfire said:
I would prefer that this comparison not be drawn. The PCGen folks do a great thing for the community, but they are self-admitted fans not writing a professional application. Customer support and other factors draw a line in the software industry and PCGen and I have both tried to keep the line clear. Campaign Suite contains character generation - with stat rolling - but that is only a small portion of the greater whole of the program. The name "Campaign" instead of "PC" should show that difference.
Also true that we have a trial version, with free character generation, but it too includes class editors, dungeon generation (without statblocks) and other features that are meant more for the GM.
Twin Rose
First Post
Re: Re: Couple of Things
Two reasons why dice-rolling is forbidden under the d20stl. First and foremost, the d20 guide specifically forbids inclusion of a method for rolling and assigning stats - at all. Secondly, WOTC feels that stat rolling can be seen as "success/failure" as defined under the "Interactive Game" definition.
Bare in mind that the OGL, and d20STL are different, seperate entities.
Brown Jenkin said:
Two reasons why dice-rolling is forbidden under the d20stl. First and foremost, the d20 guide specifically forbids inclusion of a method for rolling and assigning stats - at all. Secondly, WOTC feels that stat rolling can be seen as "success/failure" as defined under the "Interactive Game" definition.
Bare in mind that the OGL, and d20STL are different, seperate entities.
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Re: Re: Re: Couple of Things
I have become quite aware of the differences myself over the last month, but yes others might not be aware of this.
First: This is a perfectly honest question, I take it then that Campaign Suite is not a d20 product but is only OGL? or do you have seperate permission for your dice rolling?
Second; I understand that stat rolling is considered interactive and why that is the case. PC gen was allowed to keep its random name generator by WotC and be d20 legal. What I am wondering about is the inclusion of a die roler that is not field specific and does not input any results into any fields, hence no success/failure since this is not related to anything. People would have to cut and paste the results. I am not sure how a name generator is allowed and this is not since they are the same thing. Rename: bob=one=1, steve=two=2, etc. If need be name it generic generator 1 and let us change bob to 1 ourselves.
Twin Rose said:
Twin Rose said:
I have become quite aware of the differences myself over the last month, but yes others might not be aware of this.
First: This is a perfectly honest question, I take it then that Campaign Suite is not a d20 product but is only OGL? or do you have seperate permission for your dice rolling?
Second; I understand that stat rolling is considered interactive and why that is the case. PC gen was allowed to keep its random name generator by WotC and be d20 legal. What I am wondering about is the inclusion of a die roler that is not field specific and does not input any results into any fields, hence no success/failure since this is not related to anything. People would have to cut and paste the results. I am not sure how a name generator is allowed and this is not since they are the same thing. Rename: bob=one=1, steve=two=2, etc. If need be name it generic generator 1 and let us change bob to 1 ourselves.
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