D&D 4E changing 4e rules so that the game doesn't need miniatures

CapnZapp

Legend
He isn't asking about Rolemaster or Ars Magica, he's asking about RuneQuest. And I hardly believe he isn't already aware of Internet search engines.

So I'd try Basic Roleplaying Central
(That's Chaosium's site for the rules system that's underlying RuneQuest.)

Good luck!
 

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James McMurray

First Post
I'm also slowly leaning towards changing to another system, although this saddens me a bit, since D&D has always been the game of my choice.

So play D&D. Basic up to 2e didn't care much about minis, and there are thousands of books out there that can be bought cheap on ebay, in used bookstores, or as pdfs.
 


timbannock

Adventurer
Supporter
Seriously. D&D works mini-centric and mini-less.

Some of the suggestions here have been great, and surprisingly easy. In fact, I'm in awe at just how easy some of them are...can't wait to use 'em!
 

Sunglare

First Post
Wise words :) (Claims such as "D&D has always been a mini's game" are clearly bollocks.)

And don't forget the good advice on reducing the mini aspect of 4E you've already been given (by me and others)!

:)

D&D has always been a minis game, even if you were using nothing more then a simpler eraser or a die to represent your character.
Just because people have chosen to play it without minis doesn't make it not true.
 

timbannock

Adventurer
Supporter
D&D has always been a minis game, even if you were using nothing more then a simpler eraser or a die to represent your character.
Just because people have chosen to play it without minis doesn't make it not true.

It has been for some, and it hasn't been for others. Therefore, neither is a truism.

D&D has always been more "tactically" oriented or position oriented than many RPGs...but also less so than a few others. As with all games, "do what you enjoy, not what others say you should be doing." It's your table-top/friends/story/etc.
 

underfoot007

First Post
D&D has always been a mini's game. It was taken from fantasy wargaming and shrunk down to party size and dungeon crawling.

The problem I have when people start house ruling is they don't take into account a bunch of smaller things and how it will effect each class.
I say play the game how it is ment to be played and only house rule stuff that is hard to figure that even the community can not explain.
If the a group is playing a game they feel they need to change dramastically then they are just playing the wrong game and should find something else.

Absolutely true, Gary & Dave used minis when they invented the game.

Try 4E, play 4E. If you don't like it, then play a game you do like.

-jjm
 

Walknot

First Post
People who say such things are glass-half-empty people, I say! :p

...

I'd really say that flanking, OAs and push/pull/slide are the biggest "offenders" of the battlegrid need...with those things taken care of, I see no reason why you'd need a battlemap (I still recommend mapping the locations fairly accurately in size for your own notes though).

That said, I love battlegrids more and more in 4E, but obviously YMMV.

Seems like there are two basic ways to approach this one.

One way is theoritically, as in the really cool post partially quoted above. The other is emperically, by playtesting for a good solution. Of course, both work together, but can separately provide two distinct starting points.

1. Theory

For the theoretical method, you could try to find a way around the (3) issues of flanking, OA's, and push/pull/slide. One way to finesse that challenge is to look past the simulationist or gamist element of the (3) issues, and to their effects only.

Flanking offers combat advantage. OA's threaten certain moves with a reprisal. Push/pull/slide allow you to improve your positioning vis-a-vis your opponent.

In a way these are all the same effect. You and your allies all want to be in a position to threaten all of your enemies, with +2 for combat advantage, while at the same time avoiding allowing the enemy such benefits.

So, for example, whenever you would use a power that allows you to pull an opponent, then you can tell the DM you will use that to place them in a flanked position with your striker, for instance. Then when that enemy tries to move away, you may claim an OA.

2. Playtest

Now either as a follow-along to the above, or as a starting point before the above (doesn't much matter which) you can also take the empirical route.

If you have already done the theory work (above) then the rest is a matter of convention or house ruling. If your gaming group has vivid imaginations, it could be simple enough. Then DM need only adjuducate disagreements.

If there is too much disagreement, then you could need some sort of diagram as to who is flanking who and so on. You could list it on your initiative chart. Same plce you would put modifiers such as marked, and hunters quarry.

If you prefer to skip the theory and go straight to the playtesting, then please start --- on the battlemat! Yes, have your group try the battlemat if they have not already, please. It is very cool. But if like most gropups you have been there done that, then go ahead for the moment and stay there.

While some (the rest?) of the group is using the battlemat, you (and others?) just stick with the imagination. You will find that this playtest allows development of most oif the conventions you will need.

As you "imagine" the battlemat one way, and the actual battlemat is in fact slightly different, then you will work thru the wrinkles as you go along. Soon (group and DM willing) you will be mapless.

:)

Perhaps the glass is already half full after all !
 
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LostSoul

Adventurer
Maybe if you used "Zones" it would work.

You start off by adding Zones to your encounter area. Anything interesting (like a pit or a fire) is noted.

Then you figure out what zone each character is in. Compare the difference between zones to figure out where everyone is.

Same zone: Melee range.
1 zone away: Close. Close enough for close blasts. Close enough to move + attack.
2 zones away: Medium. Close enough to move + attack, too far for close blasts. No penalty on any ranged attack.
3 zones away: Long. Close enough for charges and ranged attacks (penalty on short ranged attacks).
4 zones away: Far. Too far for anything but long ranged attacks.

Move Actions:
If you Run, pick two from the list. If you Run, you suffer OAs.

Move 1 zone.
Flank.

Forced Movement:
If you have a forced movement effect of 3 squares or greater, you can pick 2from the list.

Change the Zone by 1.
Flank.
Engage an environmental effect (push into a fire, a pit, etc) in the same zone.

Area effects:

Target all creatures in the same zone. If the effect is large, pick another adjacent zone, target all creatures in that zone.


That's a start, could use some work.
 

Dausuul

Legend
D&D has always been a mini's game. It was taken from fantasy wargaming and shrunk down to party size and dungeon crawling.

It started out that way, but in previous editions there were a lot of players who never bothered with minis. I went through BECMI, all of 2E and a good chunk of 3E without ever setting mini to battlemat. It has a lot to recommend it, actually. I find it a lot more immersive, since people are visualizing the scene in their heads instead of counting off squares, and it plays faster too.

(That isn't to say I don't also enjoy playing with minis and battlemat. It's just a different kind of fun.)

The problem I have when people start house ruling is they don't take into account a bunch of smaller things and how it will effect each class.
I say play the game how it is ment to be played and only house rule stuff that is hard to figure that even the community can not explain.
If the a group is playing a game they feel they need to change dramastically then they are just playing the wrong game and should find something else.

Uh... what? It boggles my mind to hear people saying stuff like this about D&D, which has a long, long tradition of extensive house rules going back to the earliest days of the game. I challenge you to play 1E, by the book, rules as written, house-ruling nothing (and remember that ignoring any part of the rulebook is itself a house rule). I'll come visit you in your padded cell afterward.

I have found 4E to be far and away the best designed edition of D&D, resulting in far less need for house rules in my campaigns. But the idea that there's something actually wrong with making house rules is bewildering to me. I've already instituted a couple - a simplified system for tracking magic item daily powers; healing potions no longer cost healing surges - and will undoubtedly add more.

It is a very realistic (deadly) system where a crit by anyone can kill almost anyone so you can have an experienced character killed by a rat.

Wait a sec... are you claiming that "you can have an experienced character killed by a rat" is realistic? That reminds me of a quote of Cadfan's I used to have in my sig:

Cadfan said:
You have apparently internalized the flaws in 3e so deeply that you mistake them for realism.
 
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