New Open Design: Halls of the Mountain King

Jack99 said:

Anyway, my comments weren't meant to start a debate on which edition deserves it more. I was just expressing the fact that I thought it was a relatively close call, while Wolfgang's comments made it very much seem like something that was already settled. I do not begrudge him. He prefers 3.5, and would thus prefer to write for that. No hard feelings, we can't all like the same edition

Cheers

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I don't mean to speak for Wolfgang (though I have come perilously close at times, so I'm sensitive that I don't)...

... I don't think I'd describe him as preferring 3.5.
... I don't think I'd describe him as preferring 4E.

He's in a tough bind a lot of the time. The reason being is that some of his customer base, both in Open Design and Kobold Quarterly, has demonstrated the capacity to draw a line in the sand and defy him to cross over it.

I don't mean to generalize anybody, but I've read a lot of posts from people who were deadly serious that they would not spend one cent to support a certain edition. Not one cent.

I don't judge or condemn them. Its their money. Please I hope no one twists that out of context and says claims that I am saying that there is something wrong with that, because that would be absuing my words. People have a right to spend their money the way they wish.

But in strictly my personal interpretation, my very own feelings (as in I am not speaking for Wolgang!!!!)-

It comes across, to me, as an ultimatium. "On my mother's grave you'll never see a thin dime for that Edition. Not now, not ever!" And then there is an unspoken and unsettling concern that he might not see them again, even if he writes for the Edition of their choice- next time.

(For the sake of ludicrous redunancy, I am not a spokesperson for Wolfgang, this is all my interpretation.)

He took a chance on Wrath of the River King, but the subtlety that I'll point out to you, good Jack, is that Tales was written at the same time and released a few weeks before Wrath. Even though it was hard on Wolfgang to do so. But you see what I'm getting at? There was no time for anybody to get jealous.

So how does anybody react to an ultimatium?

You let the money decide.

Its the only way to keep from pissing people off, because the very same logic that defends the choice of every person ("Its my money, and I'll spend it as I please") is the same logic that protects Wolfgang from personally alienating his fan/customer base. "Its what I was paid to write"

Jack, I guess this is a long winded way of saying that I don't think Wolfgang is really allowed to have a preference. At least not one he can share with the general public.

Protagonist said:

So, pray, tell me where are all those fantastic 4e adventures en par with OD?

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Zaukrie said:

Agreed. Outside of WotC and Goodman, we have virtually nothing for 4E right now. There are hundreds (thousands) of 3.x adventures out there.

And, given what I've read of Wrath so far, none of that compares to Wolfgang's work.

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Jack99 said:

Do not get me wrong DaveMage, it's not that I do not feel with you. And I will definitely be happy for you guys, if it turns out to be a 3.5 But as some have pointed out, you do have eight years and about 700 adventures of 3.x material already. And aside from the latest WotC adventures in the HPE-serie, there is not much great stuff out there for 4e. Goodman Games have yet to deliver anything above average adventure-wise.

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Ok, all of you do make good points.

*sigh*

I'd like to see the breakdown of patronage dollars by edition and number of patrons by edition. I wonder how these two metrics compare to each other.

Jack99 said:

Besides, while it's certainly possible to convert and get a good result, I am quite convinced that if you want truly great, you design the adventure so that it takes advantage of the system's strengths.

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This is one of my concerns. Having some experience with 4e conversions of mid-level 3.5 content (Age of Worms), I learned that I couldn't just adjust monsters and convert things 1:1. Sure, you can do this, and maybe even the Players won't notice much, but it will feel stale unless you go all out and do a thorough and deep conversion.

It requires changing the encounter areas around and modifying maps to take advantage of 4e strengths. This means that while the Undermountain-style maps make this a bit easier (since there will be lots of "unexplored" areas), they would each require conversion at a core level.

It also requires altering the treasure significantly enough so that there is less, but appropriate for the adventure. This means determining how much treasure is appropriate via parcels, then going through the entire adventure and changing treasure.

Really everything encounter-wise needs a tweak to make a true 4e adventure, and the only thing that would stay the same would be the fluff.

Is is possible to make an adventure edition neutral and then have an OGL and 4e encounter notes? I know that settings can be done this way because they can be fundamentally fluff, but there are some that feel like a setting should take the system mechanics and be built on those assumptions instead of build a setting and use the mechanics you want. I don't know if it would work with an adventure though.

Either way, I believe that it needs to be a 4e version, not a 4e conversion.

Admiral Caine said:

Jack, I guess this is a long winded way of saying that I don't think Wolfgang is really allowed to have a preference. At least not one he can share with the general public.

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I agree 100% with your very long way of saying what you wanted. It's just what I think I read between the lines of his posts. Either way, I will never hold it against him. And while I won't invest in 3.x adventures, I will certainly be back the next time he makes a 4e adventure.

DaveMage said:

Ok, all of you do make good points.

*sigh*

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It happens once a year or so!

catsclaw227 said:

This is one of my concerns. Having some experience with 4e conversions of mid-level 3.5 content (Age of Worms), I learned that I couldn't just adjust monsters and convert things 1:1. Sure, you can do this, and maybe even the Players won't notice much, but it will feel stale unless you go all out and do a thorough and deep conversion.

It requires changing the encounter areas around and modifying maps to take advantage of 4e strengths. This means that while the Undermountain-style maps make this a bit easier (since there will be lots of "unexplored" areas), they would each require conversion at a core level.

It also requires altering the treasure significantly enough so that there is less, but appropriate for the adventure. This means determining how much treasure is appropriate via parcels, then going through the entire adventure and changing treasure.

Really everything encounter-wise needs a tweak to make a true 4e adventure, and the only thing that would stay the same would be the fluff.

Is is possible to make an adventure edition neutral and then have an OGL and 4e encounter notes? I know that settings can be done this way because they can be fundamentally fluff, but there are some that feel like a setting should take the system mechanics and be built on those assumptions instead of build a setting and use the mechanics you want. I don't know if it would work with an adventure though.

Either way, I believe that it needs to be a 4e version, not a 4e conversion.

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Catsclaw,

If you're signed up as a 4E voting patron, Wolfgang has started a specific conversation about a 4E version over at the LiveJournal.. about the same time you posted this.

For once, I'm not going to play amatuer mouthpiece, but I encourage 4E Patrons to go over and join the conversation.. whether they intend on staying or not.

Jack99 said:

He prefers 3.5, and would thus prefer to write for that. No hard feelings, we can't all like the same edition

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Well, not true.

I enjoy some elements of 3.5 more than 4E, and some elements of 4E much more than 3.5.

When you spend a lot of time designing, you start to see that they have strengths and weaknesses. Heck, there are parts of 2E I still think of fondly.

Monkey King said:

. Heck, there are parts of 2E I still think of fondly.

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Giant. Space. Hamsters.

Admiral Caine said:

If you're signed up as a 4E voting patron, Wolfgang has started a specific conversation about a 4E version over at the LiveJournal.. about the same time you posted this.

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That's cool. I'll hop over there after work, see what I can do to add to the conversation.

I think I will be seeking a refund. It looks like the Senior/Expert patrons will be doing the bulk of the conversion effort, and I'm not spending more cash to be a higher-level patron just to work on the Conversion of a product. If it went 4e, that's another story, but the way Wulfgang is talking, that isn't going to happen.