New Open Design: Halls of the Mountain King

Arawn76

Explorer
people are treating this as something of a competition between 3.5 and 4E.

Which is a mistake, lets leave edition wars and preferences out of what will be a great opportunity for all participants.

I intend to be a patron regardless of edition and whilst my level of involvement will be greater if 4e (my current game of choice) that won't detract from the enjoyment of watching and helping the adventure evolve with a group of creative and fun loving fellow RPG'ers.

IMHO Open Design is one of the best ideas to come about in this hobby in years, there's not a single DM who doesn't at least in part fancy himself a designer/writer. What could be better than seeing an industry icon like Wolfgang or one of his guest writers at work and be able to offer your own input and preferences.

Open design is ultimately a community project and we should never let our own personal prejudices interfere with a chance to be involved with such a fun concept.
 
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Zaukrie

New Publisher
I don't agree. I 3.x edition is not worth that much money to me. I have more 3.x adventures to mine for ideas than I'll ever really read in detail. I need 4E material, however. So, for some us, edition does matter.
 

catsclaw227

First Post
Yea, for me edition is important as well. I have way too many 3.5 adventures already - more than I could ever use, but I really need a better selection of 4e adventures.

I am going to join tomorrow, but if it doesn't go 4e, I will withdraw my patronage.
 

Monkey King

Explorer
Honestly, I'm very surprised by the depth of the support for 3E. Maybe some of it is support for the Zobeck setting, which has been built up over time.

I agree that 4E needs more adventures, and in different styles than the WotC standard. Which leaves me puzzled as to why the 4E commission support isn't quite keeping up with the 3E support.

Wrath of the River King turned out extremely well, and this is about twice the size and $5 cheaper.... Plus a full refund if you don't get your preferred edition.
 

Admiral Caine

First Post
That's not my understanding. Wolfgang made a post over on his message boards earlier today:


This post really frustrates me because I don't understand the spirit or intent with which it is written. That is, I don't understand if you're trying to say that I'm making untruthful statements, or it just brings you some satisfaction to try to be an authority on a topic.

I'll assume the best of motives, and that you're just trying to be helpful. You left off one sentence when you quoted Wolfgang, let me add it back in there for context. The emphasis is mine on the omitted sentence.

Wolfgang said:
Skewing toward OGL/3rd Edition at the moment, which is a surprise to me. 4th Edition will need some major donors (or a number of smaller ones) to catch up. I suspect that will happen if the ENWorld 4E messages get some traction, or ... maybe not.

I note that you support 3.5, which makes that a provocative sentence to omit. I myself am Edition Neutral.

In any case, Alzruis, it is too early to call the race. On Friday night, 4E was ahead. Saturday it was a tie, then later this Saturday 3.5 pulled ahead, but 4E is just behind. On Sunday 3.5 is still ahead, but it's not a blow out as evidence to the quote above, where I put the sentence you omitted back in. Perhaps I'm just biased but I don't see where I've said anything radically inaccurate.

Good God, I hope you don't expect me to cross-correlate every single update he's given with the Kobold Quarterly forums along with a link and date/time stamp, and proofread every quote for cherry-picking just so I can not be nitpicked to death.

Can we not extend each other some grace?


I don't think we're quite there yet. I got a welcome email after I signed up as a patron (Yay 3.5!) and it said:

I believe you when your e-mail did say it was almost at 40%, but yesterday afternoon Wolfgang also posted this publicly.

Wolfgang said:
The 3.5 crowd showed up in force (I think from some postings on the Paizo boards, but also patrons of the Zobeck projects). We're almost at the 50% mark for the commission.

I felt childish doing that, but for pity's sake I hope we can the stop this oneupmanship and just talk about the Project instead?

Though that's still quite fast. I think that people are treating this as something of a competition between 3.5 and 4E.

It is a competition. It has to be, because Wolfgang can't afford to alienate either consumer base. Unfortunately, part of the consumer base will be alienated no matter what he does- that's an unfortunate fact of life. However, by allowing customers to make the decision with their donations, he is allowing 'natural selection' to make the determination. Rather than making it himself. It removes that personal aspect of "Wolfgang refused to support the Edition that I like best." Now he can legitimately point to the fact that he wrote for the edition that was financially supported.

And nobody in their right mind can argue with that, especially in this economy.

So yeah- it's a competition. But we each decide whether that competition is going to be personal. I voted for 4E, but I am staying on board as a Major Patron if it is a 3.5 Project. For me, it's not personal, and I can back that up with one hundred and fifty dollars.
 

catsclaw227

First Post
I agree that 4E needs more adventures, and in different styles than the WotC standard. Which leaves me puzzled as to why the 4E commission support isn't quite keeping up with the 3E support.

Wrath of the River King turned out extremely well, and this is about twice the size and $5 cheaper.... Plus a full refund if you don't get your preferred edition.
Wolfgang -- if the commission is met before the February deadline, will you still allow the edition race to continue until the final bell? I would like to see supporters each edition get a full opportunity to make a play at the project.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Wow, you really seem to have taken my post pretty badly. I appreciate that you're restraining what seems to be some pretty serious enmity there, so let's see if we can't clear up a few things.

Admiral Caine said:
This post really frustrates me because I don't understand the spirit or intent with which it is written. That is, I don't understand if you're trying to say that I'm making untruthful statements, or it just brings you some satisfaction to try to be an authority on a topic.

Well, gee, are those my only two choices? It's hard to decide between such attractive options.

Seriously, I posted that because I thought it was helpful and informative to people reading the thread. There's nothing else there but what you're reading into it.

Admiral Caine said:
I'll assume the best of motives, and that you're just trying to be helpful.

Generally a good policy to have.

Admiral Caine said:
You left off one sentence when you quoted Wolfgang, let me add it back in there for context. The emphasis is mine on the omitted sentence.

I left that off because I didn't seem particularly relevant. The topic was where the patronage was at the moment - Wolfgang's speculation about where it may or may not go didn't seem very topical in that regard.

Admiral Caine said:
I note that you support 3.5, which makes that a provocative sentence to omit. I myself am Edition Neutral.

Really? It seems rather odd that someone "neutral" would call that missing sentence provocative. I thought it just didn't matter, personally.

Admiral Caine said:
In any case, Alzruis, it is too early to call the race.

Which is why I didn't do that.

Admiral Caine said:
On Friday night, 4E was ahead. Saturday it was a tie, then later this Saturday 3.5 pulled ahead, but 4E is just behind. On Sunday 3.5 is still ahead, but it's not a blow out as evidence to the quote above, where I put the sentence you omitted back in.

Actually, it's not in regards to the sentence you put back in; it's in reference to the part I originally quoted. You added back in speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

Admiral Caine said:
Perhaps I'm just biased but I don't see where I've said anything radically inaccurate.

I didn't say it was radically inaccurate. I just noted that what I'd seen didn't mesh up with what you said, and pointed that out. It wasn't a personal attack.

Admiral Caine said:
Good God, I hope you don't expect me to cross-correlate every single update he's given with the Kobold Quarterly forums along with a link and date/time stamp, and proofread every quote for cherry-picking just so I can not be nitpicked to death.

Huh?

Why would anyone expect that of you in the first place? It's not like you're speaking on behalf of the Open Design project or anything.

Admiral Caine said:
Can we not extend each other some grace?

This seems a tad melodramatic. It's not like we're in the middle of a flamewar; nobody is calling anybody a liar. It's just a forum post.

Admiral Caine said:
I believe you when your e-mail did say it was almost at 40%, but yesterday afternoon Wolfgang also posted this publicly.

Cool. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong. I'm just trying to introduce data as I locate it.

Admiral Caine said:
I felt childish doing that, but for pity's sake I hope we can the stop this oneupmanship and just talk about the Project instead?

You felt childish citing your sources? How is that "one-upmanship"?

Admiral Caine said:
It is a competition. It has to be, because Wolfgang can't afford to alienate either consumer base.

This doesn't sound like very "edition neutral" talk I'm hearing. ;)

Admiral Caine said:
Unfortunately, part of the consumer base will be alienated no matter what he does- that's an unfortunate fact of life. However, by allowing customers to make the decision with their donations, he is allowing 'natural selection' to make the determination. Rather than making it himself. It removes that personal aspect of "Wolfgang refused to support the Edition that I like best." Now he can legitimately point to the fact that he wrote for the edition that was financially supported.

And nobody in their right mind can argue with that, especially in this economy.

Just out of curiosity, was somebody arguing with that, right mind or not?

Admiral Caine said:
So yeah- it's a competition. But we each decide whether that competition is going to be personal.

Why then did you decide to make it so? Because that's how your post sounds.

Admiral Caine said:
I voted for 4E, but I am staying on board as a Major Patron if it is a 3.5 Project. For me, it's not personal, and I can back that up with one hundred and fifty dollars.

Booyah.
 

Glyfair

Explorer
1: When you sign up for patronage (available again on different levels) you can choose to pay for a OGL or a 4E game. The adventure will be written for the edition more people are willing to pay for. If you did vote for the edition that did not win, you will get your money back.
I will likely have to submit for the 4E version. Given the tide of discussion on Wolfgang's groups, I have low expectations, but I do hope this can be a 4E project.
 

Monkey King

Explorer
Wolfgang -- if the commission is met before the February deadline, will you still allow the edition race to continue until the final bell?

I'm not sure what good that would do, really. Once the commission is met, the project is funded enough to move ahead, so taking anyone's money at that point for an edition that's behind... Well, it just means I'd be refunding it later. And delaying actual design, mapping, and other adventure/Gazetteer work.

So, barring some reason I've missed, I'll start work as soon as there's a clear decision from the patrons who are voting with their dollars. At a guess, this project will meet the commission goal in late January or early February.

As it stands tonight, 3E is pulling away, entirely due to one major donor who has given the 3E group a huge leg up. There's been a definite rally from the Paizo boards, and no corresponding rally from 4E patrons.

Make of that what you will.
 
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Am I getting something wrong? It's $25 US for a pdf adventure? And Wrath of the River King is $33 US for a pdf adventure?

That's..... not cheap. Could people please tell me what makes these (so far unseen) adventures so special?

On a more constructive note: What's the level range?
 

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