Proposal - Dragon #365 made legal

JoeNotCharles · Jan 4, 2009

Since the AV is going to take a lot of discussion, I hope nobody minds having a second, less contentious proposal open at the same time.

Dragon 365 was released in July 2008, and is available for download [url=http://wizards.com/download.asp?filename=365_Dragon.pdf]here[/URL]. It contains the following articles with mechanics to approve:

Playtest: Artificer - Battlesmith Artificer class build (p5) - The Artificer class and powers for a single build, the Battlesmith Artificer. This is labeled a "playtest" for a class that will be published in the Eberron Player's Guide, and it's explicitly warned that details might be changed based on the feedback received.
Playtest: Artificer - Artificer Items (p14) - Items that are useful to artificers; may want to vote on them separately to the Artificer itself: Rod of Deadly Casting (useful to all rod users), Rod of Runic Resistance (functions only for Artificers); Ingot Liberatis (useful to all rod users); Stonemeld Armor (useful to all light armor wearers); Reparation Apparatus (useful to all classes with healing powers, but has an Artificer flavour); Cannith Goggles (useful to all classes, but has an Artificer flavour). Obviously if the Artificer is disallowed, so is the Rod of Runic Resistance. I've noted two items that just feel Artificer-y, although there's no mechanical reason for other classes not to use them, in case that's important to anybody. Finally, it's not clear from the wording of the article whether these are also previews that will appear (possibly revised) in the Eberron book or whether they're a Dragon-only bonus.
Backdrop: Cormyr - Draeven Marauder paragon path (p23) - A brigand or pirate themed paragon path (Fighter class). We might want to give it a setting-appropriate name if we accept it.
Backdrop: Cormyr - Luckbringer of Tymora paragon path (p23) - A paragon path for priests of the goddess of Luck (Cleric class). We might want to give it a setting-appropriate name if we accept it.
Backdrop: Cormyr - Channel Divinity: Favor of Tymora feat (p24) - A Heroic-tier feat usable by any Cleric or Paladin of Tymora. Obviously we would drop that requirement, and probably give it a setting-appropriate name.
Ecology of the Dragonborn - New Feats (p28) - The Heroic-tier feats Adaptable Breath and Hurl Breath, and the Paragon-tier feats Admixture Breath and Dragonborn Zeal
Bazaar of the Bizarre - The Treasures of Ashardalon (p55) - new magic items, too many to list separately
Dolurrh's Dawn - Reborn Champion epic destiny (p70) - an epic destiny themed for reincarnated heroes of legend.

There are also some previews of the Swordmage class Paragon-tier powers, which are pointless to review without the entire Swordmage class.

JoeNotCharles · Jan 4, 2009

And here are my opinions on the above items (not votes yet, I want to see the discussion before committing myself):

No on the Artificer class and items, since we don't want a headache in case they're changed in the Eberron book (look at the headache on the Minotaur). We can always revisit the items if the Eberron book comes out without them.
Yes on the two paragon paths and the feat from the Cormyr article - I see nothing wrong with them.
Yes on the Dragonborn feats. They don't seem unbalanced. In fact, Admixture Breath seems pretty useless to me, as I think if a creature is vulnerable to two damage types only the higher one counts - I guess it helps if you don't know what a creatures vulnerabilities are, but is it worth spending a feat just to avoid having to experiment in that case?
Undecided on the magic items. I haven't even read them all, honestly.
Yes on the Reborn Champion. It seems like a great destiny for Incarnation, for one thing. (On the other hand, we might want to pass on it and return in a couple of years when someone's actually getting close to level 20...)

Dunamin · Jan 4, 2009

These I can’t really make up my mind about:
Artificer: Interesting implementation of the artificer concept. I’m still digesting powers, but offhand most of it seems alright.
As for the new magic items, the Reparation Apparatus seems a little too potent since it doesn’t have limited use.
Ecology of the Dragonborn: Hurl Breath seems like it should clearly have been burst 1 not 2, to not make Enlarge Breath superfluous. The OA risk does not offset the gain for using it at range. Dragonborn Zeal also seems a bit strong. I’m not sure if these concerns are serious enough for me to vote no on the article, however.

These tentatively look ok to me:
Backdrop: Cormyr: The paragon paths seem fine. The mobility focus of the Draeven Marauder doesn’t play into a fighter’s strengths, but at least it compensates somewhat with Marauder Precision. The Luckbringer of Tymora has a very cool style that matches its concept perfectly; I’m thinking our godly counterpart would be Merkari (Hermes/Mercury).
Expeditionary Dispatches - Dolurrh’s Dawn (Reborn Champion ED): Overall I think its fine; my only offhand concern is the Deeds of Song and Story feature being used in connection with Intimidate to make a bloodied foe automatically surrender. That seems more a problem with abuse of Intimidate in general, though – I don’t like the idea of a BBEG being auto-defeated this way.
Perhaps I will propose a general houserule for L4W that Intimidate cannot be used to make Elite and Solo creatures surrender.

These tentatively look like bad ideas:
Bazaar of the Bizarre – The Treasures of Ashardalon (magic items): The Belt of Mountain Endurance seems overpowered in comparison to a level 22 Belt of Vigor. I’m also concerned about the Ring of the Ghost Knight (though the flavor is very cool) - it provides Minor Action attacks for the rest of the encounter but the damage is pretty low for this level so that might compensate somewhat.
Ampersand – To DM or Not to DM (Swordmage preview): Moot, since swordmages are going to get proposed in full through the FRPG.

garyh · Jan 4, 2009

I haven't look closely at this issue yet, but I will voice my concern over allowing playtest material. This was discussed in the lead-up to L4W, and the consensus at that time was to NOT include playtest material. There's too much chance something important is changed in the final release. Plus, the full options aren't there (typically just one build provided). All told, I'd rather wait until playtest material appears in whatever book it will be finally released in.

stonegod · Jan 4, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
And here are my opinions on the above items (not votes yet, I want to see the discussion before committing myself):

Actually, you can't "officially" vote anyway
- You're not a Judge
- And, even if you were a judge, you can't vote on proposals you proposed.
That being said, everyone is free to post their own opinions for the judges to digest!

Moon_Goddess · Jan 4, 2009

Are players allowed a vote or just judges?

I'm not in the favor of using playtest articles even though I think the artificer is a cool class, Havn't playtested one personally yet so I don't know if it's good or not.

stonegod · Jan 4, 2009

DarwinofMind said:
Are players allowed a vote or just judges?

Just judges officially (they are the only one's votes who "count" finally). That being said, anyone can offer an opinion to give judge's the community's pulse.

covaithe · Jan 5, 2009

...and please, do voice your opinions. We really don't have enough time to digest and evaluate all this stuff ourselves. Your input really helps.

Ditto on the playtest material. L4W is a long-term game, and not really the appropriate venue for playtest stuff.

I haven't looked at the rest yet.

Dunamin · Feb 12, 2009

I would have preferred more discussion on this before casting my votes, but proposals are slowly starting to pile up and we have some of the major supplements soon in line: Martial Power and Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide.

So I think a little decisiveness is in order, and many of my opinions on the respective articles remain largely unchanged from my previous post.

NO: Artificer. We don’t have the full package yet, playtest material is subject to change, and the authors have already noted certain changes at the article discussion on the WotC forums that will be made for the final version of the class.

NO: Ecology of the Dragonborn: My main problem is Hurl Breath, which seems like it should clearly have been burst 1 not 2, to not make Enlarge Breath superfluous (the OA risk does not offset the gain for using it at range). The rest of the article doesn’t look too bad, though, so I'm certainly willing to reconsider.

YES: Backdrop: Cormyr: The paragon paths seem fine. Mobility focus and lackluster powers from the Draeven Marauder are not impressive, but are compensated somewhat with Marauder Precision. The Luckbringer of Tymora has a very cool style that matches its concept perfectly; I’m thinking our godly counterpart would be Merkari (Hermes/Mercury).

YES: Expeditionary Dispatches - Dolurrh’s Dawn (Reborn Champion ED): Overall I think its fine; my only offhand concern is the Deeds of Song and Story feature being used in connection with Intimidate to make a bloodied foe automatically surrender. That seems more a problem with abuse of Intimidate in general, though, and I’m sure DMs and Judges will keep games fair in that regard.

NO: Bazaar of the Bizarre – The Treasures of Ashardalon (magic items): The Belt of Mountain Endurance seems overpowered in comparison to a level 22 Belt of Vigor. I’m also concerned about the Ring of the Ghost Knight (though the flavor is very cool) - it provides Minor Action attacks for the rest of the encounter but the damage is pretty low for this level so that might compensate somewhat.

NO: Ampersand – To DM or Not to DM (Swordmage preview): Moot, since swordmages are going to get proposed in full through the FRPG.

JoeNotCharles · Feb 12, 2009

I think the lack of discussion indicates that nobody really cares much about this article. I only proposed it in the first place because it seemed like a good idea to get it out of the way before moving on to the Warlock article, which in hindsight wasn't necessary at all. So might as well just close the proposal until someone actually wants to make use of something from this issue.