Converting Planescape monsters

I'm starting to think we need to call them "astral figments" just to keep them distinct from the type of illusion spell.

Dex usually decreases with increasing size, though, so I'd rather not have it get higher. I'd rather give them more NA or a deflection bonus if you really don't like natural armor for them. Also, normal figments (from spells) have AC = 10 + size modifier per the SRD, which poses an interesting issue for the whole belief/reality thing. More about that later.

Anyway, how about the following abilities and NA? I'm advancing Cha for purposes of the belief business below, so it's negotiable. I've given either pure NA or NA plus a deflection bonus = Cha bonus. Also, Con should be - if they're really constructs, but I'm maybe leaning more now toward aberrations.
Small -- Str 12, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 11; NA +0 or NA +0, +0 deflection
Medium -- Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 13; NA +4 or NA +3, +1 deflection
Large -- Str 18, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 17; NA +10 or NA +7, +3 deflection

As for the belief ability, the original monster requires too many rolls, as you say. I'm also finding your proposed group save mechanic a bit complex to work for the DM, plus I think the intent of the original is that all PCs take full damage from "real" (astral) figments. I think we might need to stray a bit more from the original mechanic but maintain the flavor. I propose making these figments (as illusions) to start, but they have an SA to "steal reality" from a single PC. Something like the two following abilities:

Demand Credence (Su): N times per day, an astral figment can present itself in a particularly convincing manner to a single opponent. If that opponent fails a DC X Will save, its believe gives the astral figment a real form with all the statistics given above for Y hours. For this duration, the astral figment is not an illusion and can interact with and attack all creatures and objects normally. The save DC is Cha-based and includes a +Z racial bonus.

Illusory Form (Ex): Astral figments normally take an illusory form, though they can gain a real form through their Demand Credence special attack (see above).

The illusory form functions as the spell programmed image with the following exceptions. Astral figments are permanent and capable of self-directed action and intelligible speech. The illusory form has AC equal to 10 plus the size modifier and Dex modifier (X, Y, and Z for typical Small, Medium, and Large specimens). Successful attacks against the astral figment deal hp damage as usual, and the astral figments are destroyed when they reach zero hp. Finally, if an opponent fails its save to disbelieve in the astral figment's illusory form, it does not take actual damage from the astral figment's attacks but behaves as if it does, including falling unconscious when it believes it has zero hp.

freyar said:

I'm starting to think we need to call them "astral figments" just to keep them distinct from the type of illusion spell.

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That's fine by me!

freyar said:

Dex usually decreases with increasing size, though, so I'd rather not have it get higher. I'd rather give them more NA or a deflection bonus if you really don't like natural armor for them. Also, normal figments (from spells) have AC = 10 + size modifier per the SRD, which poses an interesting issue for the whole belief/reality thing. More about that later.

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There are some creatures that have higher Dexterity in their larger forms, such as Air Elementals and Wraiths/Dread Wraiths. Astral figments seem pretty similar in not having much real "substance" to them.

freyar said:

Anyway, how about the following abilities and NA? I'm advancing Cha for purposes of the belief business below, so it's negotiable. I've given either pure NA or NA plus a deflection bonus = Cha bonus.

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Since you're giving them a racial bonus to the "belief business" anyway I'd rather tweak that bonus than increase the Charisma of the Large figment. Just because I find the symmetry of the +2 steps more attractive.

I still prefer the increasing Dexterity, but I'd be game to give them a deflection bonus as well.

i.e.:

Small Astral Figment — Str 12, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 11; AC 12 (+1 size, +1 Dex)
Medium Astral Figment — Str 14, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 13; AC 16 (+2 Dex, +4 NA) or AC 16 (+2 Dex, +3 NA, +1 deflection)
Large Astral Figment — Str 18, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 15 [or 17?]; AC 20 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +8 NA) or AC 20 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +6 NA, +2 deflection)

Hmmm… I prefer the increasing Dex plus Deflection version of the above.

freyar said:

Also, Con should be - if they're really constructs, but I'm maybe leaning more now toward aberrations.

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As I said earlier I'm proposing making them some kind of "Living Constructs" like the Warforged of Eberron. Those do have a Constitution score.

Eberron said:

—Unlike other constructs, a warforged has a Constitution score.
—Unlike other constructs, a warforged is not immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain.
—A warforged cannot heal damage naturally.
—Unlike other constructs, warforged are subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects.
—As living constructs, warforged can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a warforged can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a warforged is vulnerable to disable construct and harm. However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged.
—A warforged responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A warforged with 0 hit points is disabled, just like a living creature. He can only take a single move action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than –10, a warforged is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any actions. However, an inert warforged does not lose additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that is stable.
—As a living construct, a warforged can be raised or resurrected.
—A warforged does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but he can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes’ feast and potions.
—Although living constructs do not need to sleep, a warforged wizard must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.
• +2 Constitution, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma: Warforged are resilient and powerful, but their difficulty in relating to other creatures makes them seem aloof or even hostile.

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I'd cut out the bits I've marked in RED and maybe slightly tweak the immunities marked in BLUE. Since their bodies are naught but amorphous "shadow stuff" I'd consider making them immune to nonlethal damage and critical hits and the fact they're not really alive might make them immune to death effects.

That said, I'd be OK leaving them with those vulnerabilities. In fact I'd fancy adding to them by making them vulnerable to sleep, paralysis and energy drain as the original creatures didn't have those immunities.

As for the GREEN bit, since these are basically "living illusions" I'm wondering about having certain illusion spells have "real effects" on them. i.e. if a person casts a minor image to make it look like an astral figment is healed or injured the figment's hit points actually change as if it received a cure/inflict conjuration of the same level (i.e. a cure moderate wounds or inflict moderate wounds).

In any case, I'd be inclined to cut out the "However, spells from the healing subschool and supernatural abilities that cure hit point damage or ability damage provide only half their normal effect to a warforged" sentence from the GREEN section.

I'd bundle these traits under a different name than "Living Construct" though since they'll be different from the Warforged version.

Maybe call them a "Living Figment Construct" instead?

freyar said:

As for the belief ability, the original monster requires too many rolls, as you say. I'm also finding your proposed group save mechanic a bit complex to work for the DM, plus I think the intent of the original is that all PCs take full damage from "real" (astral) figments. I think we might need to stray a bit more from the original mechanic but maintain the flavor. I propose making these figments (as illusions) to start, but they have an SA to "steal reality" from a single PC. Something like the two following abilities:

Demand Credence (Su):

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I have no objection to the basic idea, but I'd change how it works. As written, it would require the astral figment to use a standard action demanding credence before it can attack. I would rather it automatically demands credence the first time it attempts to physically interact with a creature. Also, making it N per day would allow the same figment to make multiple attempts against a single target. I'd change that to a successful Will save meaning that astral figment can't demand credence from that particular target for a period of 24 hours.

Also, rather than it becoming "not an illusion" I'd prefer it if the creature instead transforms from a "pattern" illusion (that can make people think they've been injured) to a "shadow" illusion (that uses extradimensional energy to become partially real and inflict real effects, including damage).

Oh, and we should specify how long this "credence" lasts and what happens if the opponent who gave the astral figment dies or falls unconscious.

freyar said:

Illusory Form (Ex):

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Come to think of it, is there any indication in the original text that the figments are able to inflict "illusory" damage? They could just be incapable of physical interaction if everyone makes their saves, in effect acting like an illusion (figment) spell instead of the illusion (pattern) spell that would be required to do imaginary damage.

It'd be easier if the figments only did real damage or no damage. If some figments did illusory damage to some opponents but no damage to others it'd be a pain to keep track of.

OK, I'll go along with the increasing Dex plus deflection bonus.

I'm also amenable to your proposed "Living Figment Construct" SQ.

I meant to include the standard 24 hour disclaimer but forgot. I like most of your suggestions, including getting rid of illusory damage, but I'd rather just have them turn real instead of turning into shadow illusions. Less bookkeeping, I think. So something like this:

Demand Credence (Su): The first time an astral figment attacks a given opponent, that opponent must make a DC X Will save. On a failure, that opponent's belief gives the astral figment a real form with all the statistics given above for Y hours. For this duration, the astral figment is not an illusion and can interact with and attack all creatures and objects normally. The save DC is Cha-based and includes a +Z racial bonus. If the opponent succeeds on its Will save, it is immune to that astral figment's Demand Credence ability for 24 hours.

Illusory Form (Ex): Astral figments normally take an illusory form, though they can gain a real form through their Demand Credence special attack (see above).

The illusory form functions as the spell programmed image with the following exceptions. Astral figments are permanent and capable of self-directed action and intelligible speech. The illusory form has AC equal to 10 plus the size modifier and Dex modifier (X, Y, and Z for typical Small, Medium, and Large specimens). Successful attacks against the astral figment deal hp damage as usual, and the astral figments are destroyed when they reach zero hp.

I wonder if we should also limit the number of opponents an astral figment can use Demand Credence on each day though. The racial bonus was to compensate for not demanding credence from everyone.

freyar said:

OK, I'll go along with the increasing Dex plus deflection bonus.

I'm also amenable to your proposed "Living Figment Construct" SQ.

I meant to include the standard 24 hour disclaimer but forgot. I like most of your suggestions, including getting rid of illusory damage, but I'd rather just have them turn real instead of turning into shadow illusions. Less bookkeeping, I think. So something like this:

Demand Credence (Su): The first time an astral figment attacks a given opponent, that opponent must make a DC X Will save. On a failure, that opponent's belief gives the astral figment a real form with all the statistics given above for Y hours. For this duration, the astral figment is not an illusion and can interact with and attack all creatures and objects normally. The save DC is Cha-based and includes a +Z racial bonus. If the opponent succeeds on its Will save, it is immune to that astral figment's Demand Credence ability for 24 hours.

Illusory Form (Ex): Astral figments normally take an illusory form, though they can gain a real form through their Demand Credence special attack (see above).

The illusory form functions as the spell programmed image with the following exceptions. Astral figments are permanent and capable of self-directed action and intelligible speech. The illusory form has AC equal to 10 plus the size modifier and Dex modifier (X, Y, and Z for typical Small, Medium, and Large specimens). Successful attacks against the astral figment deal hp damage as usual, and the astral figments are destroyed when they reach zero hp.

I wonder if we should also limit the number of opponents an astral figment can use Demand Credence on each day though. The racial bonus was to compensate for not demanding credence from everyone.

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Hmm… I'm still not keen on that usage of "real".

Oh, and I think they ought to have the same AC when "illusory" if only to have fewer things to keep track of.

I'll try to come up with a counter-proposal but it'll have to wait til later.

Rather than "real," I suppose we could use something like "physical." How's that?

I think I'd be ok giving them the same AC in normal and illusory forms as long as we don't give them NA or armor or anything. How about keeping AC to the Dex and size modifiers and maybe give them some DR as a boost in the non-illusory form?

freyar said:

Rather than "real," I suppose we could use something like "physical." How's that?

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Yes, something like "able to affect physical reality" or "inflicts and receives damage as if it were a material creature" would suit me better.

freyar said:

I think I'd be ok giving them the same AC in normal and illusory forms as long as we don't give them NA or armor or anything. How about keeping AC to the Dex and size modifiers and maybe give them some DR as a boost in the non-illusory form?

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Erm, it already has some DR in non-illusory form. The originals had "+1 weapons or better to hit" or +2 weapons or better to hit".

Anyhow, I'm wondering whether you're hung up on the figment class of Illusion spells regarding the AC.

I was thinking more of shadow spells like shadow conjuration. A creature created by such a spell doesn't have a reduced AC when disbelieved, it's just its damage that's weakened to 20% of normal.

Following that logic, these "shadow creatures" just have a 100% reduction of damage when disbelieved instead of an 80% reduction.

Oops, missed the DR in the working draft.

Anyway, yes, I do want to try to stick to making them like figment spells. If we make these more like shadow conjuration, I think we might as well just say that Tomin can spam shadow conjuration or shades or something, either as a sorcerer or with SLAs or something. I don't know, maybe that makes the most sense anyway. What do you think? Are these really new monsters or just some kind of shadow?

freyar said:

Oops, missed the DR in the working draft.

Anyway, yes, I do want to try to stick to making them like figment spells. If we make these more like shadow conjuration, I think we might as well just say that Tomin can spam shadow conjuration or shades or something, either as a sorcerer or with SLAs or something. I don't know, maybe that makes the most sense anyway. What do you think? Are these really new monsters or just some kind of shadow?

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Well the context is that they're creations of Tomin's cloak of figments but they're as much creatures as the astral construct we've already compared them to, and those have full 3E stat blocks.

Shades or shadow conjurations also have full 3e stat blocks --- the stat blocks of the monsters "summoned" with a reality percentage. Anyway, I don't have a problem with making them full creatures, but I want enough differentiation from the shadow conjuration group of spells to justify it. Which I think means making them more like figment spells.

freyar said:

Shades or shadow conjurations also have full 3e stat blocks --- the stat blocks of the monsters "summoned" with a reality percentage. Anyway, I don't have a problem with making them full creatures, but I want enough differentiation from the shadow conjuration group of spells to justify it. Which I think means making them more like figment spells.

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I'm just not seeing why it matters if they work like a shadow conjuration spell. They're a shadow of a new monster. Isn't the "new monster" the important bit rather than the type of illusion?

Figment spells by definition "are unreal" and can't do damage, while these creatures can.

Trying to make them more figment-like feels like rewriting the Being of the Ball so it's produced by a Summoning spell instead of a Calling spell. It just doesn't seem as good a match to the original text.