concealed vs. secret doors and detect secret doors spell

architectofsleep · Jan 20, 2009

I'm the GM (fairly new to it, but a long-time player). I'm running a 2nd Ed. adventure that has been updated to 3.5. I don't want to give too many specifics in case one of my players is reading this.

Anyway, let's say the adventure calls for a concealed door. The door isn't magically hidden or built into the walls or anything. It's merely covered by something. Say, a bookcase or a large piece of furniture or a tapestry.

Does the Detect Secret Doors spell discover it?

The text of the spell says: "Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell"

The door was specifically covered in order to conceal it, but the door itself wasn't specifically constructed to escape detection. If they look in the right place, or move the right thing, they can see the door immediately. Am I being too sneaky/nitpicky as a GM to say that Detect Secret Doors doesn't reveal the location of a concealed door? Am I reading the spell too conservatively?

Jhaelen · Jan 20, 2009

I'd recommend to let the spell detect this kind of concealed door.

If the spell didn't work, this kind of concealment would be in every way superior to 'normally' concealed doors. Eventually this would lead to every door being concealed in that way. Which in turn would lead to someone researching a variant of the spell that _would_ detect them.

If you'd prefer there was no way to detect this door via magic, I'd recommend to instead ban the spell. It's more consistent.

frankthedm · Jan 20, 2009

architectofslee said:
I'm the GM (fairly new to it, but a long-time player). I'm running a 2nd Ed. adventure that has been updated to 3.5. I don't want to give too many specifics in case one of my players is reading this.

Anyway, let's say the adventure calls for a concealed door. The door isn't magically hidden or built into the walls or anything. It's merely covered by something. Say, a bookcase or a large piece of furniture or a tapestry.

Does the Detect Secret Doors spell discover it?

The text of the spell says: "Only passages, doors, or openings that have been specifically constructed to escape detection are detected by this spell"

You have your answer in the spell. Detect secret doors is a fallback option once you have toppled book cases and torn down the tapestries rather than a one round replacement for searching a cluttered room.

Jhaelen said:
I'd recommend to let the spell detect this kind of concealed door.

If the spell didn't work, this kind of concealment would be in every way superior to 'normally' concealed doors.

Except you can find those concealed doors by moving stuff around. Detect secret doors is a first level spell and thus it has limitations.

Jhaelen said:
Eventually this would lead to every door being concealed in that way. Which in turn would lead to someone researching a variant of the spell that _would_ detect them.

I know my characters check behind and beneath every bookcase, tapestry and miscellaneous room feature big enough to cover a door before we break out the detection magic.

Ogrork the Mighty · Jan 20, 2009

Sounds like a needless mechanic just to get to the detect spell.

I'd just allow the spell to detect it. It's silly that the wizard's magic can find a specially constructed secret door but it can't find a door behind a shower curtain.

Kask · Jan 20, 2009

Ogrork the Mighty said:
It's silly that the wizard's magic can find a specially constructed secret door but it can't find a door behind a shower curtain.

So it detects the glass door (window) behind the curtain? No. Only secret doors. They have a specific definition.

architectofsleep · Jan 21, 2009

Would you treat it any differently if it was covered by wallpaper? So, they'd have to actually think to remove the wallpaper in order to find the door?

Jhaelen · Jan 21, 2009

Well, weren't there some rules specifying what kind of materials with a certain thickness block detection spells?

Something like 3' of wood, 1' of stone, 1'' of lead?!

irdeggman · Jan 21, 2009

IMO what Frankthedm is describing (moving things around) is actually part of what the Search check is about. At best I would give a circumstance bonus to the parties search check if they took extra precautions to find a secret door. Noting of course that you can take 10 or 20 on a Search check.

Is this adventure one that has been "professionally" updated or are you attempting to update it yourself?

I don't think that 3.5 has "concealed" doors anymore - everything is classifed as "secret". The amount of difficulty in finding it (i.e, the amount of concealment) is reflected in the search DC.

from the SRD:

Secret Doors: Disguised as a bare patch of wall (or floor, or ceiling), a bookcase, a fireplace, or a fountain, a secret door leads to a secret passage or room. Someone examining the area finds a secret door, if one exists, on a successful Search check (DC 20 for a typical secret door to DC 30 for a well-hidden secret door). Elves have a chance to detect a secret door just by casually looking at an area.

Many secret doors require a special method of opening, such as a hidden button or pressure plate. Secret doors can open like normal doors, or they may pivot, slide, sink, rise, or even lower like a drawbridge to permit access. Builders might put a secret door down low near the floor or high up in a wall, making it difficult to find or reach. Wizards and sorcerers have a spell, phase door, that allows them to create a magic secret door that only they can use.

architectofsleep · Jan 21, 2009

irdeggman said:
Is this adventure one that has been "professionally" updated or are you attempting to update it yourself?

It has been professionally updated, but not by WotC.

irdeggman said:
I don't think that 3.5 has "concealed" doors anymore - everything is classifed as "secret". The amount of difficulty in finding it (i.e, the amount of concealment) is reflected in the search DC.

There are actually several references to concealed things, including pits and doors, in the SRD. E.g.: "Crafty builders take advantage of tapestries to place alcoves, concealed doors, or secret switches behind them." It could be read that "secret" and "concealed" are used interchangeably, or it could be read that they're separate things. Either way, the wording wasn't updated when the adventure was, unfortunately.

I'm almost certainly going to go with letting them find the door with a spell, but I wanted to hear how more experienced GMs would make the call.

frankthedm · Jan 21, 2009

irdeggman said:
IMO what Frankthedm is describing (moving things around) is actually part of what the Search check is about.

Yet i recall at least a few folks claiming using the search skill being a purely visual endeavor and that seaching shouldn't trigger touch sensitive traps.