Leif's Homebrew 4E, OOC1

Lou · Apr 4, 2009

renau1g said:
For sure, during our RL game, we really have to keep an eye on the various buffs from our cleric, bonuses to hit, marks, quarries, ongoing damage, status effets, etc...

I find it's a lot on the DM during the game to keep track of.

I think DMing 4e is going to be difficult, even live.

Consider the concept of minions. They die when they take any damage. Now look at how they fight. Look up kobolds in the MM. Minion kobolds swarm targets so they each get combat advantage (new term for flanking) over the target. Note how the non-minion kobolds get +2 for each minion in a "flanking-type" position next to the target. So the DM is supposed to track each minion and non-minion to maximize the "flanking" for the other kobolds. I assume that this applies to other monsters with minions--that's a lot of work and things to keep track of.

renau1g · Apr 4, 2009

Yes it is. I ran a game for a bit in 4e. It involved kobolds and they were more like raptors than I expected. Shifty bastards. Now luckily I had a bunch of kobold minis to represent minions, but the 2 strikers in the group blew their daily powers on a minion... one crit'd the minion to add insult to injury.

Leif · Apr 6, 2009

Lou said:
I think DMing 4e is going to be difficult, even live.

Consider the concept of minions. They die when they take any damage. Now look at how they fight. Look up kobolds in the MM. Minion kobolds swarm targets so they each get combat advantage (new term for flanking) over the target. Note how the non-minion kobolds get +2 for each minion in a "flanking-type" position next to the target. So the DM is supposed to track each minion and non-minion to maximize the "flanking" for the other kobolds. I assume that this applies to other monsters with minions--that's a lot of work and things to keep track of.

Interesting, Lou. I should have read up on kobolds more thoroughly before the current fight started. Looks like you guys got a free pass this time. Just beware next time, though! Thanks for the good info!

(Said the DM as Lou's fellow players began to assemble against him carrying ropes and instruments of torture.)

Leif · Apr 6, 2009

I am always pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to resolve a round of combat in 4E!

Lou · Apr 6, 2009

Combat with minions raises another issue, how easy is it for the PCs to identify the C&C monsters, the ones who are NOT the minions?

Leif · Apr 6, 2009

C&C??

I'm not sure that it should be immediately obvious. In fact, I think that it makes for a more interesting encounter if it is uncertain which, if any, monsters are minions. But, having said that, there are clues all over the place. In this encounter, for example, the worrisome kobolds (the Dragonshields) are weilding short swords (martial weapons) while the minions are (in true stereotypical fashion) SPEAR CARRIERS (although just about any simple weapon could subsititute for the spears). The spellcaster was apparently brutally obvious, since the entire party instantly gangbanged him before he ever had a chance to flame even one of you!

So, I'd say, to identify monsters who are NOT minions, apply the same things that you use to recognize characters who are Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Wizards, Clerics, or Rogues. In the case of fightrers that might be: armor (usually), big sharp weapons (almost always), shields (sometimes).

Just my thoughts. Any wisdom to share, renau1g, our resident 4E expert?

renau1g · Apr 6, 2009

Well I know I read a lot on whether PC's should be told explicitly which ones were minions or not because the rules are silent on this topic. I never told my PC's for a variety of reasons when I ran things, but the rulebooks do mention that the descriptions of the bad guys should give hints as to their roles (i.e. in this case the spears being wielded vs. other implements might give off their minion status). After my PC's blew 2 dailies on them though I explained what a minion was and their role in the game (as I was the only one who knew anything about 4e at the time)

In my experience on the other side of the screen it's usually fairly obvious who the minions are as there are usually more than 2-3 of the same enemy, which doesn't usually happen for standard monsters.

Leif · Apr 6, 2009

Ryan, you and Lou evidently know more than I do about 'minionhood', so ignorance of the existence of minions is not an issue. And the unschooled advice that I provided on the issue is pretty much in line with the expert opinion that we have (that being your very own opinion), so I'm very pleased by that.

Scotley · Apr 8, 2009

My understanding is that one should use monster knowledge checks (PH page 180) to determine this information. I believe things like minion and skirmisher are 'keywords' which have a DC15 to determine. Different knowledge checks are required for different monster types.

Leif · Apr 8, 2009

Interesting. I see that Scotley is already fast-becoming a 4E guru, too!

Leif's Homebrew 4E, OOC1

Lou

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renau1g

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Leif

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Leif

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Lou

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Leif

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renau1g

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Leif

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Scotley

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Leif

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