Tempest Balance - Forked Thread: Battlerager: Experiences?

Bagpuss · Jan 28, 2009

Dr_Sage said:
Interesting argument... you say its fair to trade the "+1" for the very same "+1" plus all the Tempest benefits.... poor great weapon fighter. Basically you say its fair to trade an apple for an aple plus oranges and a couple of bananas.

But I agree the Tempest discussion is not here.

How about here then?

I think the point is the Tempest doesn't get the very same +1 as the Weapon Trained Fighter. His +1 is dependent on off-hand weapons that do less damage (excluding broken Double Weapons). His other Tempest abilities are dependent on having worse armor class than the Weapon Trained fighter.

Sure a WT Fighter using two shortswords (in chainmail) won't be as good as a Tempest Technique fighter with two shortswords (in chainmail). But then a WT Fighter would probably be in Scale or even Plate using a Longsword + Shield or a Two-handed weapon, or a Bastard Sword and Shield.

deleteme123456 · Jan 29, 2009

Actually, consider this... a Guardian Fighter (+1 with 1H) who takes the Multi Ranger feat in MP that lets you get 1H in off-hand can dual wield Bastard Swords, or my favorite, waraxes. So this costs two feats, we'll give the tempest fighter two feats as well, probably weapon focus: light blade, and twf if we just want to compare damage output. We'll stick to bastard swords so we don't have to screw with a different chance to hit. This is not to necessarily say the GF trick is better, but to present it for discussion. For further comparison, we'll add a TWF ranger, who takes Chain as one of his feats and WF: heavy blade as the other.

Level 2 fighters, assume race doesn't matter here. Both have the same str.
TF: 1d6+2 [class feature]+0.5 [TWF, main hand is half your attacks] + 1 [WF] = 3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 per hit. AC = 10 + 1 (level) + 6 (chain) + 1 (TWD) = 18

GF: 1d10 = 5.5 per hit. AC = 18 (scale)

TWFR: 1d10+1 = 6.5 per hit (-1 to hit vs fighter) + 3.5 quarry damage (half the time) = 6.5 + 1.75 = 8.25. AC = 17 (chain)

Going forward, the GF has better defensive options (can get plate and plate spec, or get scale spec to keep speed 6 if he invests a tiny bit in dex), and can go for axes instead which have easier (IMO) feat requirements (CON > DEX for a fighter). The TWFR has all sorts of options including lethal quarry, boosting dex for Stormwarden (although the fighters could multi ranger and take stormwarden), scale, twd, etc. Of course, all sorts of options may translate into "not enough feats to become effective."

Danceofmasks · Jan 29, 2009

The problem is, tempest fighter, by RAW, isn't going to be using shortswords if the guardian is using a superior weapon.
After all, a double sword in their hands is D8+2, grants +1 AC, and works with nimble blade.

It all comes down to the brokenness of double swords ... if double weapons didn't exist, tempest would be fair.

deleteme123456 · Jan 29, 2009

Well yes, I was ignoring the problem of double weapons in tempest fighters' hands. Assume they don't exist or otherwise work sanely.

Danceofmasks · Jan 29, 2009

Lol, fair enough.
But for the sake of completeness, I'm going to also chime in with "guardian fighter with dual strike is pointless 'cos without quarry, 1(W)+str+shield is far superior to 1(W)+1(W)."

I guess I'm just that huge a fan of the shield push feat.

Deverash · Jan 29, 2009

Danceofmasks said:
The problem is, tempest fighter, by RAW, isn't going to be using shortswords if the guardian is using a superior weapon.
After all, a double sword in their hands is D8+2, grants +1 AC, and works with nimble blade.

It all comes down to the brokenness of double swords ... if double weapons didn't exist, tempest would be fair.

It doesn't even require the double weapons to get a d8. The Scourge is a Martial flail weapon that deals d8 damage and the Off Hand property as well.

Danceofmasks · Jan 29, 2009

Well, yeah .. but shortswords > scourge, 'cos with nimble blade, trading 1 damroll for 2 hitroll is a fantastic trade .. especially for a dexfighter.
But I guess you can use both .. and swing with your scourge while you (for example) don't have CA and/or up against a foe with a shield.

deleteme123456 · Jan 29, 2009

Flail mastery may be slightly more attractive than light blade mastery. Only requires the insane dex of 19. At least you'll have trouble keeping your WIS up so you can't abuse marked scourge (or whatever that's called) too.

Of course, if I have to get dex 19, maybe I do think pretty hard about stormwarden.