Proposal - Martial Power

Lord Sessadore · Feb 21, 2009

Just to be clear, you're talking about a situation in which BRV is allowed, correct?

If BRV didn't exist, can you stack THP from Invigorating powers?

The Digger · Feb 21, 2009

I haven't got MP yet (its in the post!) but I've been reading the posts.

It seems to me that, as generally agreed, double weapons as written shouldn't be allowed and the BRV fighter seems to be just as contentious.

Having read the thread suggested by Stonegod I found the following from DonAdam which I thought very relevant.

"my biggest problem with the MP fighter builds is that they so clearly step on the toes of other classes: BRV on the Barbarian, Tempest on the Ranger. In trying to make the fighter good at those things, they've made the fighter as good or better at the classes for whom it is their schtick, and with all the benefits of being a fighter to boot."

I've not heard this argument elsewhere but I think it particularly relevant.

Dunamin · Feb 21, 2009

Omitting the Battlerager feature rather than try to fix it works for me as well, but I’m all open to suggestions for making it work.

For the latter option, I’m also sort of leaning towards once per round and cutting the invigorate stacking. Thus, a possible houserule could look like this:

Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

Lord Sessadore said:
If BRV didn't exist, can you stack THP from Invigorating powers?

Not as far as I can tell.

EvolutionKB · Feb 21, 2009

Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

The only problem with this as I see it is one thing. You are supposed to be a defender, potentially and likely facing against more than one foe in a round. A con of 18 is obtainable. That's 4 thp once per round. Pretty much any level 1 monster can negate that damage. If you are fighting more than one monster at at a time, your damage bonus goes out the window.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 21, 2009

Dunamin said:
Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

To address Evo's concerns, which I think are valid, how about changing the second part to this:

"When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick."

Changed part italicized for emphasis. Basically, you get the damage bonus if you've had temp hp anytime in the last round.

Atanatotatos · Feb 22, 2009

Oh c'mon we're talking about +2 to dmg that you're trading for -1 to AC, -1 to skill checks, and -1 to -2 to hit!! And we were discussing wether Marked Scourge is overpowered or not??

JoeNotCharles · Feb 22, 2009

Lord Sessadore said:
If BRV didn't exist, can you stack THP from Invigorating powers?

No, definitely not.

Don Incognito · Feb 22, 2009

Ata, that's what you're paying.

What you get is damage reduction for melee attacks equal to (at least) your Con modifier.

Sure, its a heavy price, but what you get FAT outweighs it. Face it, BRV is too good.

Atanatotatos · Feb 22, 2009

BRV on each attack, it is. BRV once per round, definitely not.

Oni · Feb 22, 2009

What is the purpose of the battlerager?

To be able to make the tough guy fighter that can take a lot of punishment. I think this is a good archetype and worth trying to support.

I'd like to go back to the idea of 2/3/5 heroic/paragon/epic DR. Simply make the Battlerager Vigor class feature read as follows.

Battlerager Vigor
You gain resist 2 to all damage. This increases to resist 4 at paragon, and resist 6 at epic.

Fullstop, no extra junk like increased damage.

For me that about hits the sweetspot with +1 to hit, that is to say to me its a hard choice and not a forgone conclusion to choose one over the other.

Please compare this with the current battlerager. It cuts the effective damage resistance by 1/2 to 2/3 depending. The current version is overpowered in a specific situation and useless in another (melee vs ranged combat) and that should be remedied. This version, like the Weapon talent, is useful all the time without being overly good in one situation.

For reference a decently built battlerager at level 1 under the current rules gains 4-6 temp hp anytime it is hit by melee or close attacks. The bulk of attacks a fighter will take will be in melee because of the nature of their role. The repeated complainted I've seen over and over again is not so much that the battlerager is overpowered, but rather that is overpowered within the context of melee heavy encounters and forces the DM to build around them. This is bad.

I believe that my version will be able to be noticable tougher, but never to the point of that the danger of combat is removed, and thus will not force DM's to alter their encounter to pose a threat to the player.