Proposal - Martial Power

JoeNotCharles · Feb 27, 2009

I agree, I prefer to just cut unbalanced powers rather than house rule them. (Even though I keep suggesting house rules, that's more for interest's sake...) In this case, though, "does not stack" feels more like a clarifaction than an actual modification. (As opposed to adding something like "once per day".)

I definitely prefer to vote quickly on the non-problematic items and leave the others up for discussion, but I think covaithe's on record as strongly preferring to make a final decision on a whole book or article at once.

Dunamin · Feb 27, 2009

In general, I agree that we should minimize houserules so that players don’t have too much besides the Rules As Written to keep in mind when selecting their character options.

However, I think it’s ok to address some of the most popular yet disputed elements for big supplements like Martial Power and FRPG, and find a solution rather than flat-out deny an option that appeals to many members of the community.

Lord Sessadore said:
I think it might be a good idea to add a clause like we did with AV; something like "problematic elements can be omitted by proposal later". I think it'd be foolish to think that we've dealt with everything potentially bad in the book - it is a big book.

Agreed. This should probably be the standard for future big supplements as well, such as Arcane Power.

So to reiterate, I’m fine with omitting Battlerager Vigor and Marked Scourge, but these versions are also ok with me:

Battlerager Vigor

EvolutionKB said:
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

Marked Scourge
Prerequisite: 11th level, fighter, Combat Challenge class feature
Benefit: Add your Wisdom modifier to damage rolls against enemies marked by you, if you do not already add Wisdom modifier from another source.

If Two-Blade Warrior prevents use of the Tempest Technique feature, I don’t see a problem with it. Losing +1 to hit and +2 to damage is not worth the upgrade in damage dice.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 27, 2009

Just chiming in to say pretty much the same thing as Dunamin. I'm also ok with either omitting BRV and Marked Scourge, or amending them as he said.

Dunamin · Feb 27, 2009

I’ll just take the plunge here:

YES. Houseruled Battlerager Vigor class feature:

EvolutionKB said:
Battlerager Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

-
Houseruled Marked Scourge

Dunamin said:
Prerequisite: 11th level, fighter, Combat Challenge class feature
Benefit: Add your Wisdom modifier to damage rolls against enemies marked by you, if you do not already add Wisdom modifier from another source.

Since this is my proposal, I can’t vote on it.
-
YES. The rest of Martial Power
Notably with the option for potentially problematic elements to be excluded through standard proposal procedure.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 27, 2009

EDIT: I've changed my vote; it is here. I'll leave the old vote here for posterity's sake.

[sblock=Old Vote]Here we go, then. I like going 2nd instead of 1st.

YES: Houseruled Battlerager Vigor class feature:

EvolutionKB said:
Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

YES: Houseruled Marked Scourge feat:

Dunamin said:
Marked Scourge
Prerequisite: 11th level, fighter, Combat Challenge class feature
Benefit: Add your Wisdom modifier to damage rolls against enemies marked by you, if you do not already add Wisdom modifier from another source.

YES: The rest of Martial Power
Again, with the important caveat that problematic elements can be excluded later by proposal.[/sblock]

Ozymandias79 · Feb 27, 2009

I don't think we should should vote yet.
I for one think don't think we should modify material from books from wizards, either it is in or we exclude it, otherwise we are insulting the creators of the material.

I also think that the battlerager is finr if take into the account the weak powers that has the invigorating keywords also think that to get all benefits of the battlerager, the fighter has to give up alot IE less ac, less chance to hit, tend to be overrun, more armor check penalty and less choice in weapons.

I for one see the tempest as the more overpowered one as it gains:

Tempest Technique

When you wield two melee weapons, you gain a +1
bonus to attack rolls with weapons that have the offhand
property.
You gain Two-Weapon Defense as a bonus feat,
even if you don’t meet the prerequisites.
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain
a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close
weapon attacks when you are wielding two weapons.
This bonus increases to +2 with weapons that have

the off-hand property.

and about minions doing no damage, I say that they aren't meant to be damage dealers, they are meant to make the defenders, leaders and strikers waste their attacks and even if they are no threat to you that doesn't mean that they are not a threat to the party.

About the Marked scourge feat I think it is fine the way it is BTW you didn't mention that it is the same for a paladin/fighter-multiclass going for pit fighter paragon path and using holy striike

I also think that the stacking of the temporary hitpoints for the battlerager is a unique selling point, IE It is what attract players to play Battleragers and this houserule will turn away players, who otherwise would join L4W. I can say this much also the battlerager as it is in the book is my selling point for martial powers, without it I don't care for approving martial Powers (but then again it is not up to me).

covaithe · Feb 27, 2009

Only vague philosophical yammerings here. If you're looking for votes, move on; I've not yet actually read the thing all the way yet.

As for why we're doing all this fussing about balance, and not just giving WotC the benefit of the doubt for their printed sources, I'd cite three reasons.

First, WotC sometimes gets things wrong. Hence, errata, and warts like 3.5 psionics, polymorph, etc. The 3 month waiting period and approval process gives WotC time to find and correct some of the errors, and it gives us a fighting chance to do something about issues the community has identified but WotC hasn't addressed. Essentially, it's crowdsourcing.

Second, we have some unique balance requirements that WotC... always doesn't seem to consider. Among other things, we care a lot more about power creep than they do. It matters to us if a character created at the start is significantly less powerful than a character created with PHB2 and Martial Power and FRPG and AV, even though the latter character is lower level.

Third, it's likely that at some point in L4W's lifetime, people will propose 3rd party or homebrew content. Going through this approval process for WotC material gives us some experience evaluating rules content for balance issues, so we're less likely to let in ridiculous homebrew stuff down the line.

Don Incognito · Feb 27, 2009

My new character uses material from Martial Power; namely Footwork Lure and Group Assault. I don't see why we can't OK the book, but temporarily disallow the questionable material (i.e. BRV, Tempest, and Marked Scourge)

CaBaNa · Feb 27, 2009

Second...

(I don't mind seeing it fully approved, no edit, unless someone has SEEN a playtest that shows the imbalance issue, at that point I differ to those with the experience.)

Lord Sessadore · Feb 27, 2009

I don't see a problem with the Tempest without double weapons. In order to get the attack bonus, the tempest has to wield weapons with d6 damage dice, and to get the damage bonus they also have to wear chain or light armour. That gives them a big gap in damage especially compared to other fighters; the only reason they're still competitive is that they get multi-attack powers.

On the other hand, BRV as-written can basically give you 3 or 4 extra surges per day (or even per fight). Plus extra damage. I think that's a little much to get in return for +1 to attack.

As for houseruling things, I think covaithe's got it - WotC doesn't always get things right, and we also have some unique concerns compared to most gaming groups. Also, does that mean that houseruling things to fit your real-life game with your buddies from home is a slight to WotC too? Just curious what your thoughts are on that.