Proposal - Martial Power

Ozymandias79 · Feb 27, 2009

Lord S, Yes, that can happen but then again it is more likely he will be a pincushion before he gets to act and that is 3-4 surges

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and also the BRV wants to get hit by attacks and then again the BRV doesn't wanna get hit by attacks so the BRV is a bit cloven there, but that also makes the BRV a bit reckless (IE easier grants CA) and thereby makes him a bit easier to kill

Lord Sessadore · Feb 27, 2009

Well, letting himself get hit doesn't make him easier to kill if it actually makes him tougher. I mean, against nearly any melee opponent, a battlerager cuts their damage to less than half of normal.

And getting turned into a pincushion before acting would be exactly the same with a 'normal' fighter.

I just think that BRV makes the fighter far, far better at absorbing damage than any other defender, and that shouldn't happen, in my opinion. Especially by losing only +1 to hit.

Don Incognito · Mar 2, 2009

bump.

My vote (which I don't think counts, but whatever) is Yes on Martial Power, No on Marked Scourge, No on BRV, and a tentative Yes on Tempest fighters, so long as no one uses a double weapon.

garyh · Mar 2, 2009

My vote does count, but I'm not going to finalize it just yet. My inclination at this point is no on BRV, yes on everything else (including Marked Scurge with no alterations, and including Tempest). We aren't allowing double weapons, so Tempest seems fine, and I really think the Marked Scourge issue is being made too much of. BRV does seem too powerful to me, though.

Lord Sessadore · Mar 2, 2009

EDIT: It was pointed out to me that this doesn't work. I'll leave it here, though, in case people want to know what it was all about.

Here's another thought to do with Marked Scourge that occurred to me today:

Imagine a Str paladin multiclassed to fighter. That would qualify him to take fighter feats, correct? So he takes Marked Scourge and Pit Fighter. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but then wouldn't holy strike vs. a marked target do 1[W]+Str+3*Wis damage? Also, as a paladin it's rather trivial for every attack to be on a marked target (just use DC before you attack), unless you have multi-target powers, so then Marked Scourge would likely apply to every attack.

Just something to chew on.

Don Incognito · Mar 2, 2009

Marked Scourge has Combat Challenge as a prerequisite. So only REAL fighters (not multiclass fighters) can take it.

Lord Sessadore · Mar 2, 2009

Woops, you're right. My bad. Scratch the paladin multiclass abuse

garyh · Mar 3, 2009

Lord Sessadore said:
Here's another thought to do with Marked Scourge that occurred to me today:

Imagine a Str paladin multiclassed to fighter. That would qualify him to take fighter feats, correct? So he takes Marked Scourge and Pit Fighter. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but then wouldn't holy strike vs. a marked target do 1[W]+Str+3*Wis damage? Also, as a paladin it's rather trivial for every attack to be on a marked target (just use DC before you attack), unless you have multi-target powers, so then Marked Scourge would likely apply to every attack.

Just something to chew on.

Ya know, I really have a hard time having a problem with it, even so. Yeah, Pit Fighter adding Wisdom is great, but folks seem to forget that to do that you're NOT getting some other cool Paragon Path ability of that level. And yeah, more damage is always great, but there are a lot of other nice PP's that you have to turn your back on.

Heck, even if you're just concerned about damage, you can just go Kensei with marked scourge and get +4 damage from Kensei Focus (or whatever that power is called) and +Wis from MS, and how different is that from this much-debated Pit-Fighter/Marked Scourge combo? It's equal to PF/MS with 18 Wisdom, better if your weapon encourages a high stat other with Wisdom. And this is also combined with a +1 to hit from the 11th level Kensei ability.

(Okay, so I've got Kensei on the brain because I was thinking about doing that for Hrav's PP).

EDIT: Don Incognito burst the Paladin bubble I was immediately responding to, but my general points still stand.

Lord Sessadore · Mar 3, 2009

You make good points, garyh. To be honest, I don't think I'd give up Astral Weapon or Champion of Order for Raiyek just to take Pit Fighter and marked scourge and get some extra damage.

AW and CoO are just awesome; I'll have a hard enough time deciding between the two, heh. Unless there's some really cool Avenger PP in PHB2 ...

Dunamin · Mar 3, 2009

There’s actually a simple way to continue discussion for disputed elements of the book, while processing the elements that are not.

Simply voting for “Martial Power, minus [Feature X], [Feat Y], and [Power Z]” does not prevent a seperate vote for or against the excluded elements, and not all votes have to be made at the same time.

Here are my current votes:

YES. Houseruled Battlerager Vigor class feature:

EvolutionKB said:
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

-
YES. Martial Power, minus Battlerager Vigor feature
Notably with the option for potentially problematic elements to be excluded through standard proposal procedure.

garyh said:
Ya know, I really have a hard time having a problem with it, even so. Yeah, Pit Fighter adding Wisdom is great, but folks seem to forget that to do that you're NOT getting some other cool Paragon Path ability of that level. And yeah, more damage is always great, but there are a lot of other nice PP's that you have to turn your back on.

Heck, even if you're just concerned about damage, you can just go Kensei with marked scourge and get +4 damage from Kensei Focus (or whatever that power is called) and +Wis from MS, and how different is that from this much-debated Pit-Fighter/Marked Scourge combo? It's equal to PF/MS with 18 Wisdom, better if your weapon encourages a high stat other with Wisdom. And this is also combined with a +1 to hit from the 11th level Kensei ability.

Good points, Garyh. I didn’t see problems with Marked Scourge until complaints about Pit Fighter combo, but it doesn’t seem as much an issue from that perspective.

At this point I’m inclined to go with whatever will get things resolved so it doesn’t drag out forever – be it Marked Scourge in, Marked Scourge out, or Marked Scourge houseruled.