Proposal - Martial Power

Atanatotatos · Feb 18, 2009

Uhmm I still don't think Battlerager is unbalaced. You basically get tem hp=con mod when you're hit in melee. You also get a small damage boos IF you use certain weapons and wear chainmail (which means restricting your weapon options and using a plainly suboptimal armor). Sure the temp hp stack with those from invigorating powers, but those can be used by any fighter... It' a nice option but it doesn't render the others moot. +1 to hit is still big stuff, you don't get many of those, especially considering that you'll want to have as high a consitution as possible, which further restricts your options. Battlerager is kind of a one-trick pony.

Also, I don't see why wis to dmg wouldn't stack from both PF and MS. They're both untyped bonus if I remember right.

Dunamin · Feb 18, 2009

Ozymandias79 said:
From what I have read the battlerager misses A LOT more than the OHF or the THF, which makes up for the powerful ability it gets IE if you don't hit, then the ability is useless.

I disagree.

It doesn't seem an even trade to me, and the temp hp gain when you are hit has no relation to your own ability to hit.

JoeNotCharles · Feb 18, 2009

My interpretation of Marked Scourge is that you apply the bonus damage to any attacker you've already marked when you started the attack. Pit Fighter applies the damage to every attack made with a weapon. So a Pit Fighter with Marked Scourge would do +Wis dam the first time they attack somebody, and then mark them, and then on the next attack would do +2*Wis. So they overlap somewhat but aren't clearly the same.

I'd say the Pit Fighter ability is superior because it applies to all the fighter's standard attacks whereas with Marked Scourge you have at least one attack per enemy without the bonus.

Under this interpretation I think it's a great feat, but not clearly overpowering.

garyh · Feb 18, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
My interpretation of Marked Scourge is that you apply the bonus damage to any attacker you've already marked when you started the attack. Pit Fighter applies the damage to every attack made with a weapon. So a Pit Fighter with Marked Scourge would do +Wis dam the first time they attack somebody, and then mark them, and then on the next attack would do +2*Wis. So they overlap somewhat but aren't clearly the same.

I'd say the Pit Fighter ability is superior because it applies to all the fighter's standard attacks whereas with Marked Scourge you have at least one attack per enemy without the bonus.

Under this interpretation I think it's a great feat, but not clearly overpowering.

That was my interpretation and assessment of Marked Scourge as well.

I'm not sure where I stand on the battlerage issue. I know that's been a hot topic here on EN World. Haven't had any experience seeing it action myself yet, though.

Atanatotatos · Feb 18, 2009

Aehm. It seems balanced because you make the example "2". Try more like, +14. If you don't want to push it. And you're obviously going to use it with a grain of salt. Like, marking all your foes with a burst 1 power (of which the fighter has many), then send an action point and use another similar power. Then think about it: Tempest.Lots of attacks. We're talking about a bonus to damage that is absolutely unseen in 4e. It comes very very close to the average dmg output of a stormwarden ranger, except that we're talking about a defender.

There was a battlerager too in the dead playtest game I was dming that I mentioned in the minotaur thread. Still in my sig.

garyh · Feb 18, 2009

One more related issue to approving Martial Power...

While existing characters can retrain as normal to access newly approved powers and feats, there's no official mechanism for changing your class feature.

I think it would be fair to allow folks, at the next level up after a source is approved, to permanantly change their class feature to one introduced in a new source. So if you want to change your ranger to a beastmaster or your warlord to resourceful presence, go right ahead when you next level up.

I don't think it's fair to only allow access to such features to characters created after they were approved.

Note: I have no interest myself in changing Hrav to a Ruthless Ruffian Rogue. I'm very happy with him as he is with the Brutal Rogue option.

JoeNotCharles · Feb 18, 2009

Atanatotatos said:
Aehm. It seems balanced because you make the example "2". Try more like, +14. If you don't want to push it. And you're obviously going to use it with a grain of salt. Like, marking all your foes with a burst 1 power (of which the fighter has many), then send an action point and use another similar power. Then think about it: Tempest.Lots of attacks. We're talking about a bonus to damage that is absolutely unseen in 4e. It comes very very close to the average dmg output of a stormwarden ranger, except that we're talking about a defender.

I don't follow this. Are you replying to my "+Wis" and "+2*Wis" comparison? That means "2 times Wisdom" - did you think I meant "2 plus Wisdom"? There's no way you could mean 14 times Wisdom, so I don't think we're talking about the same thing...

Atanatotatos · Feb 18, 2009

Right. I interpreted it wrongly. Yeah I mean Wisdom to dmg twice. So you think that's not a big deal? Look for another feat that gives this great an advantage: most feats will give you +2/3 to dmg max, and usually at epic level and/or limitedly to some dmg types or weaons, or in exchange for a penalty to hit, like power attack. Marked scourge trumps all of them.

garyh · Feb 18, 2009

Atanatotatos said:
Right. I interpreted it wrongly. Yeah I mean Wisdom to dmg twice. So you think that's not a big deal? Look for another feat that gives this great an advantage: most feats will give you +2/3 to dmg max, and usually at epic level and/or limitedly to some dmg types or weaons, or in exchange for a penalty to hit, like power attack. Marked scourge trumps all of them.

Consider it this way.

Weapon Focus - +1 damage all the time at Heroic tier with one type of weapon.

Marked Scourge - +2 or +3 damage at Heroic tier (I can't see 18 Wis fighters), but ONLY on the second or more attack on the same target. If you have to shift targets, you have to go another round without the damage.

Since you can't guarantee that you'll get that damage every round, it should be higher. That's the same reason rogues get 2d6 instead of 1d6 like rangers and warlocks.

I'd take Weapon Focus before taking Marked Scourge (and a superior weapon before either).

Atanatotatos · Feb 18, 2009

You can take all of them actually because they all stack. You can have a +8 wisdom modifier at epic level if you take demigod without ruining your build. With that it's +8 dmg on that second attack; with Pit fighter that makes 16; isn't it a bit much however you look at it? Consider a Tempest, dual strike: you mark your foe with your first attack, on the second you already have that +8; Or any power that gives you multiple attacks really. ~~Consider the auto-damage auras~~. I think it's simply better than any other dmg-bonus feats.