Proposal - Martial Power

Atanatotatos · Feb 20, 2009

Let's do a more realistic example. Let's say the party is confronting a number of skeleton minions (fixed dmg:4) and some artillery. Let's say our Battlerager, chainmail and two-handed weapon and 16 Con, which seem reasonable, is confronting two of these minions in melee, and an artillery is focusing on him. For this example I'll consider three hits vs our battlerager, but at low dmg, ok?
The first minion attacks and hits: 4 dmg; the battlerager vigor comes into play and the fighter gains 3 temp hp. The second minion attacks and deals only 1 point of dmg, because of the temp hps. The fighter doesn't gain more because he has already used the benefit (once per round, as I have always interpreted and used it); then the ranged attacker hits too and deals, let's say, 8 dmg.
So the fighter was dealt 16 total dmg this round, of which 3 points were cancelled by battlerager vigor.
Now you might say: why are you considering three hits? Well I might have considere two on three, or one on three, but at much higher dmg, and it would have been mostly the same.
I don't see why this is a huge benefit. It's very good, but you'll hit less, and be hit more often if you want to achieve the full benefits of the feature (chainmail and a +2 proficiency weapon with no bonus to hit from weapon mastery); it's a big deal.

Dunamin · Feb 20, 2009

Just to be clear: The feature is not restricted to once per round as written.

Martial Power said:
Each time an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When you gain temporary hit points by hitting with an attack that has the invigorating keyword, those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary hit points you already have.
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

This whole package is worth +1 to hit? Absolutely no way, I'm not voting yes for that feature without some serious houseruling.

Atanatotatos · Feb 20, 2009

Yes that "each time" is seriously a pain in the a**. Let's say that restricting it to once per round makes it reasonable then? I wouldn't have allowed it any other way.

Dawn Raven · Feb 20, 2009

Even if the temporary hp was only once per round, it does seem like alot. They can avoid part of one hit once per round. Sure, that's cool and find. Not bad.

Adding every use of Invigorating on top of that? We're looking at 2 gains of temp hp per round, which stack. So they'll likely be getting at least 4-6 a round. Still, for a fighter it doesn't seem too much.

And then, on top of all that, they get a damage bonus with the two types of attacks that fighters use most often, in other words, they always get a bonus to damage. An increase if you use a specific weapon just makes it more likely that you will use that weapon to get the bonus.

So +1 to hit for every attack you make, which will most likely be used at most 2-3 times per round. Or, you can get 4-6 temp hp a round and +2 to all attacks. I think the main reason is that its much, much easier to get fistfuls of temporary hit points using battlerager than it is to make ample use of your +1 to hit every round.

Don Incognito · Feb 20, 2009

The THP gained from the class feature isn't what breaks the build in half; it's the fact that the HP you gain from using invigorating powers stacks with your current THP. That basically turns the temporary HP you gain from your invigorating attacks into REAL HP, because as long as it stacks, its no different from normal HP. The whole feature is just one huge mess. I say its better to just get rid of the feature entirely, but allow all of the powers (no use throwing the baby out with the bathwater).

JoeNotCharles · Feb 20, 2009

Would putting the Invigorating THP in its own pool so that it doesn't stack with itself bring it back into balance? (Example: you have 3 THP. You hit with an Invigorating power and gain 2 more. Now you have 5 THP. You hit again with an Invigorating power and gain 4 more. This replaces the 2 Invigorating THP you already have, so you now have 7 THP, not 9.)

Lord Sessadore · Feb 20, 2009

That might work ... I'm tempted to suggest removing the whole 'invigorating THP can stack' part, but then Invigorating powers become pretty useless if you're getting hit, which is backwards to what the 'rager is intended to be.

The problem I see with BRV is that each part, on its own, is a pretty even trade for +1 attack. But all 3 parts together is a bit much.

Con mod in THP 1/round? I'd say that's a fair trade for +1 to hit.
Invigorating powers' THP can stack? I'd say that's a fair trade for +1 to hit.
+1 damage for effective -1 to hit, or +2 damage for effective -2 to hit - that's on par with feats/weapon choices, so it could be a bit more powerful as a class feature, in my opinion.

Maybe say that the player has to pick two of the three benefits?? Only half-joking here.

Oni · Feb 20, 2009

I've thought about it a little and I've a couple of suggestions regarding the battlerager.

1. Give the battlerager DR 2/4/6 or 1/3/6 heroic/paragon/epic. Do away with the dwarf stoneblood feat. They still reduce damage but not quite as much. Overall best against groups, still somewhat effective against a single opponent.

or

2. At the start of each round they gain Temp HP equal to their Con mod, probably should still do away with the dwarf stoneblood feat. They'll reduce the same amount as the original battlerager against solo opponents, but less effective against groups.

The invigorating powers, I think I'm fine because they're a tradeoff in functionality with whatever other you're giving up to take them. And they can be taken by any fighter that wants to utilize them.

I'd say leave the damage bonus in lighter armour, in order to utilize it you'll have to be hit more and I think it evens out in effectiveness, the effectiveness of each point of AC actually quite high and you're giving up a lot to get it.

Despite the fact that it doesn't look like much +1 to hit is a very good bonus and 1 point of damage is definately not worth the trade off for it. So really I think it comes down to altering the first half of the battlerager entry to balance that +1 the rest IMO is self balancing.

All this said my personal preference is Option 1 I think if the numbers can be tweaked just right. Whatever is done we should remember to keep it simple to minimize the bookkeeping issues and the like.

[edit: Note I removed the melee/close limitation. One of the problems with the battlerager isn't that it was unbeatable, it's that it makes certain game situations unusable by being overly effective in one area, that is damage mitigation in melee combat. So effective that DM's have to build around it. Since I lowered the effectiveness of that damage mitigation I spread it out so that it would be useful in a more wide range of situations, if the mitigation is low enough you get a class feature that is always useful, but doesn't break any given encounter types unlike the original rules.]

JoeNotCharles · Feb 20, 2009

Maybe turn the last option into a feat that's available only to the Battlerager, and then cut back the first two slightly?

(My preference for this forum is just to disallow the build, BTW, I'm just brainstorming. Maybe we should take this sub-discussion to the homebrew forum and make a separate proposal if we come up with something solid.)

hafrogman · Feb 20, 2009

Lord Sessadore said:
+1 damage for effective -1 to hit, or +2 damage for effective -2 to hit - that's on par with feats/weapon choices, so it could be a bit more powerful as a class feature, in my opinion.

Don't forget that the damage bonus also comes with a -1 AC and -1 Armor Check. Honestly, I'd say that the damage bonus is a wash, and doesn't really weigh in.

The way I see it, there's two big issues.

1) The temporary hp acts as damage reduction equal to your con modifier. Which is very good against standard enemies, but insane against minions.

2) The rather rather badly worded passage that says "When you gain temporary hit points by hitting with an attack that has the invigorating keyword, those temporary hit points stack with any other temporary hit points you already have." I'm pretty sure the intention was to allow Invigorating HP to stack with the Battlerage Vigor HP, but it has the side effect of allowing Invigorating HP to stack with themselves.

For 1) It's been suggested to make it work once a round, giving a sort of per round damage threshold. I'd say this works pretty well, with one caveat. The damage bonus from above is based on having temporary HP as well. With the once per round, assuming it was used after the first attack of a round, all the THP could be gone by the time the rager's initiative comes around. So I'd change the requirement to "If the last attack to hit you was a close or melee attack OR you have Temporary HP". This would allow the damage bonus under the same circumstances.

For 2) Joe's suggestion might be the best. The Battlerage Vigor power could be amended to read:

Suggested Edit said:
When you gain temporary hit points by hitting with an attack that has the invigorating keyword, those temporary hit points stack with any ~~other~~ temporary hit points you already have from the battlerage vigor class feature.