Proposal - Martial Power

hafrogman · Feb 20, 2009

Oni said:
All this said my personal preference is Option 1 I think if the numbers can be tweaked just right. Whatever is done we should remember to keep it simple to minimize the bookkeeping issues and the like.

Well, I had a whole thought train typed out, and then ENWorld lost it on me. *sigh*

Short version: Con is supposed to be important to battleragers, this is part of the cost of the feature as it's a bad deal for a Strength based class. Perhaps the DR could be based on Con.

Heroic: 1/2 Con bonus (DR 1-2)
Paragon: 1 + 1/2 Con bonus (DR 3-4)
Epic: 2 + 1/2 Con bonus (DR 4-6)

Those with better Con have better DR and worse non-fortitude saves.

Changing to DR would require removing or changing the damage bonus requirement as well, per my previous post.

Oni · Feb 20, 2009

The importance of Con is only slightly reduced. The damage increase still favors Con heavy weapons, and anyone going battlerager is likely going to be using invigorating powers which also require heavy con. I felt it was worth trading doing the importance of the stat just a touch to prevent variability in DR to keep the results across all characters more predictable.

[edit: You wouldn't necessarily have to change anything about the added damage feature, the battlerager would still be able to optain temp HP with other powers, quite regularly with the invigorating at will. In some ways this could enhance tanking because if you don't hit the battlerager and take away his temp HP he'll turn around and hit you even harder. One of the problems with being too tough is that it actually becomes more worth while to ignore you and take the penalties than attack you. This actually counteracts that somewhat.]

Lord Sessadore · Feb 20, 2009

The problem I see with the DR approach is that it's very close to the original wording of the feature. Both ways give you damage mitigation against nearly every attack; all that you change by switching it to DR is that it counts for every attack (this is better than the original), but the actual mitigation is somewhat lower (this is worse than the original). Together, they add up to about the same as the original, in my opinion, so I'm not really seeing where the advantage is in doing it that way, other than less bookkeeping. In other words, I don't see it improving the balance of the feature one way or another.

My personal favorite is simply changing it to once per round, and not allowing invigorating THP to stack with themselves.

Whatever we do, we should make sure to make Con figure into it somewhere.

Edit: Just read Oni's post, and he makes some good points. Less variability is good, I think, but I still don't like giving the 'rager mitigation against every single attack. Should they get mitigation against a dragon's breath, or a mind flayer's blast?

Don Incognito · Feb 20, 2009

I honestly don't think that its worth trying to salvage BRV. It being broken in half is the only thing that attracts people to it, to be honest. Trying to change it to be not broken in half is going to alienate the people who wanted to play it.

I'm all in favor of disallowing the class feature completely rather than trying to salvage it.

hafrogman · Feb 20, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
(My preference for this forum is just to disallow the build, BTW, I'm just brainstorming.

Don Incognito said:
I'm all in favor of disallowing the class feature completely rather than trying to salvage it.

This is probably best all around. No matter what, if there's a good houserule system, it probably won't be simple.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 21, 2009

Works for me. In other words, I won't vote no on a MP proposal that omits BRV.

Atanatotatos · Feb 21, 2009

Now, am I missing something or you can't get temp hp more than once per round from invigorating powers? It says so in the descrition of the keyword.

stonegod · Feb 21, 2009

Atanatotatos said:
Now, am I missing something or you can't get temp hp more than once per round from invigorating powers? It says so in the descrition of the keyword.

You are correct (MP 7): Invigorating only happens once per round. In addition, note that while Invigorating stacks w/ any current temp hp for that hit, any other temp hp gained afterwards (including that from Battlerager Vigor) does not stack (especially not with any remaining temp hp from the previous Invigorating power). Effectively, one can have max 2*Conmod temp hp just from BV and Invigoration (get hit and then use a Invigorating Power) at a time.

JoeNotCharles · Feb 21, 2009

stonegod said:
You are correct (MP 7): Invigorating only happens once per round. In addition, note that while Invigorating stacks w/ any current temp hp for that hit, any other temp hp gained afterwards (including that from Battlerager Vigor) does not stack (especially not with any remaining temp hp from the previous Invigorating power). Effectively, one can have max 2*Conmod temp hp just from BV and Invigoration (get hit and then use a Invigorating Power) at a time.

But it doesn't go away unless you're hit, does it? So if you have your 2*Conmod, and then on the next round you use another Invigorating power, as written you'd now have 3*Conmod, wouldn't you?

stonegod · Feb 21, 2009

JoeNotCharles said:
But it doesn't go away unless you're hit, does it? So if you have your 2*Conmod, and then on the next round you use another Invigorating power, as written you'd now have 3*Conmod, wouldn't you?

Assuming you didn't loose any, that is I believe the correct interpretation (corroborated here). If you are hit, you will gain none from the hit itself (unless you burned through all your temp hp beforehand).

Another discussion is here if no one has seen it. Several other threads as well.

(Note, I'm not advocating one position or the other.)