Proposal - Martial Power

Atanatotatos · Feb 22, 2009

Definitely too good.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 22, 2009

I'm afraid I have to agree with Ata. I'm going to assume 1st level here, since that will be the most commonly seen level in L4W, and where your suggestion will have the highest impact.

+1 to attacks - this means that one more attack out of every 20 you make will hit. Definitely an important bonus, but lets keep the scope in view here. How much damage will that one hit do? Say, anywhere from 5-20+, depending on the attack. But in how many fights do you make 20 attacks? Let's say it makes a difference every 2nd fight (meaning that you make 10 attack rolls per fight). Roughly. How much of a difference? Well, that one extra hit might bring down an opponent one round earlier, say.

Now, resist all 2 - that affects every fight. Say you get hit 2-5 times per fight (this is probably conservative). That means that you're effectively "healing" 4-10 damage per fight; this is on the scale of getting one extra surge trigger per fight.

I can pretty well guarantee that if you took any combat in L4W so far that involved a fighter, lowered every attack roll by 1 and gave them resist all 2, the end result would be quite different, and much in the favor of the party.

EvolutionKB · Feb 22, 2009

This is my side: I am one to argue in favor of allowing everything until it becomes a problem for DM(s). If players want to play one, let them. If it becomes a problem, then we can disallow it. PbP goes slow enough where it shouldn't be a problem. These proposal threads should say: This is what we have a problem with, if you create a character that begins to outshine others(i.e. makes others not have fun), on that adventure(or overall), then we may rule that you modify your character. If a player is not cool with that, then they shouldn't be playing. I use this all the time in my games.
We should be making a list of things that could be problematic and warning players that others will be watching. Remember as DMs show up in the tavern, they choose who goes on to play in their game. If the BRV player is there for many months and isn't playing in a game, when BRV is on the "watch list", there may be a reason why.

But if the majority in leaning one way or another, I like to have some part of an option rather not having it at all.

Here is what I propose same as many others:

Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick

This may have a little more bookkeeping, but I think it may be the best solution if it's the only solution. Remember, not everybody wants a 16 or 18 Con to take advantage of this feature.

Erekose13 · Feb 22, 2009

From a quick look at the invigorating powers available in MP, it appears that one of the balancing factors of the BRV is that invigorating powers are rather limited or less effective than comparable powers of the same level.

JoeNotCharles · Feb 22, 2009

Well, remember that Invigorating powers give temporary hp for everyone, it's just that the hp only stacks for Battleragers. So I think Invigorating powers are pretty balanced as-is if you remember that they include "and gain thp equal to your Con" at the end. (Although I haven't done an in-depth check.)

Oni · Feb 23, 2009

If you truly believe DR to be overpowered, keep in mind you approved AV which contains plate that grants it at very similar levels (in addition to the normal enhancement, it's part of the base plate). 1/2/5 Heroic/Paragon/Epic. I don't know what the rules are for puchasing specific items, but it's possible that it will be there to deal with anyway.

Lord Sessadore · Feb 23, 2009

Yes, I know there's plate in AV that gives resist all ... I was thinking about that during this discussion. To be honest, my first instinct when looking at them was that they might be overpowered as well ...

I might just be holding on to my 3.x aversion to DR for PCs, but I don't like giving players that kind of protection.

Atanatotatos · Feb 23, 2009

But that's different. You won't have it at first level. To wear it, you have to be a paladin or spend feats. You can only have one effect so it's that or another. Either you pay for it, or it is under the DM's control...
All these things make it different. Way more expensive than a class feature that you get at level one.
Also, DR 5 at Epic is, well, not nothing, but sure it ain't gamebreaking.

Dunamin · Feb 23, 2009

Lord Sessadore said:
Dunamin said:

Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks whenever you have temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +2 if you’re wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick.

Click to expand...

To address Evo's concerns, which I think are valid, how about changing the second part to this:

"When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick."

Changed part italicized for emphasis. Basically, you get the damage bonus if you've had temp hp anytime in the last round.

EvolutionKB said:
Here is what I propose same as many others:

Battlerage Vigor
Once per round, when an enemy hits you with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (after the attack is resolved).
When wearing light armor or chainmail, whenever you gain temporary hit points you also gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks until the end of your next turn. This bonus increases to +2 if you're wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick

This may have a little more bookkeeping, but I think it may be the best solution if it's the only solution. Remember, not everybody wants a 16 or 18 Con to take advantage of this feature.

I think this works for me as well. Once per round, no stacking, and damage boost is retained until end of next turn (pretty much whenever the battlerager is doing his thing).

Lord Sessadore · Feb 23, 2009

Well, unless people want to talk about BRV some more, what are some thoughts on the various other things in MP? Some possibly contentious items, off the top of my head:

Marked Scourge (feat)
Tempest (Ftr talent) + Two-blade Warrior (feat)
Brash Strike (Ftr at-will)
Dwarf Stoneblood (feat)