Martial Exploits - Trip, Disarm, and Sunder

I see nothing here that a stunt couldn't handle.

Not that your rules are bad or anything but it seems to be unnecessarily complicated.

"I want to disarm my opponent."

"Fine, make a Bluff stunt."

"24 against Insight."

"Good job. He drops his weapon. While he scrambles to pick it up you smack him for... *looks up damage table for stunts, rolls* X damage. And he's also prone."

"Can I do it again?"

"No, he won't fall for the same trick twice. Maybe another trick though."

DM Magic said:

Two: Do that math thing with the other powers Terraism made.

Click to expand...

Minor Feint:

You're spending a standard action to (possibly) give a target -1 to all defenses for a turn, and it doesn't even do any damage. Most at-wills do damage AND have an effect that's at least that good. (Unbalanced also means you can't flank an enemy, but many at-will powers have pushes or other bonus or forced movement so you could use it to move out of flanking position or push an enemy out of position.) This is probably not that useful.

Trip:

You're spending a standard action to (possibly) make the target more vulnerable until end of next turn and make him spend a move action. This is probably reasonably balanced, with the exception of possibly being very powerful against solos (you stand 1 square away with a reach weapon and keep doing it to the target, and he gets stuck in the "Donut of Ineffectual Standard Actions" while your allies pummel away) but that's more of a general problem with conditions on solos, not a problem with this power in general. And there are already powers (usually encounter powers) that knock prone as well as do damage so you're not really breaking anything. Only thing to be aware of is that it lets them do the Polearm Gamble/Heavy Blade Opportunity trick without needing either of the other combo pieces.

Sunder:

You're spending an attack to make each further attack against the target have a 1/20 more chance to hit. So the comparison is:

Normal at-will: If it hits, do the amount of damage an at-will does.

Sunder attack: If it hits, then each time someone attacks it, do an average extra amount of damage equal to 1/20 of that attack's hit damage (since there's a 1/20 chance it turns a miss into a hit.)

So the sunder attack is better if you expect to be doing more than 20 at-wills' worth of attacks at him. Most monsters don't last that long, so this power doesn't seem like it will break anything. Again that might change if you're fighting solos, though.

Wow, I'm impressed this thread got brought back to life.

I like that it's getting feedback and tweaks. If it helps anyone, I can tell you a few things from experience - I've been using these rules for about a year and a half now, and they've gotten significantly more playtested.

• The unbalanced condition is triggered most often, unsurprisingly, by someone fumbling a roll.
• It's not a huge effect, and Alex is right - nobody will spend a standard to inflict it using Minor Feint.
• Once, I've had someone take advantage of the minor feint + action point + disarm, and it worked out pretty well. It was a fun circumstance, but we'd like to see it more.
• The rules are neat, but don't see use.

So in the last six months or so, we've been trying it with some variations. It's definitely been a slight power-up, but it's been good, too. Here's what we've been working with now:

[h4]Unbalanced[/h4]

• You can’t shift; if a power would allow you to shift, you move the same distance, instead.
• Forced movement moves you an additional 1 square
• You can’t take opportunity attacks.
• You can't flank an enemy.

A character who is unbalanced can spend a minor action to regain his composure, removing the condition.

Click to expand...

You can see, the unbalanced condition no longer provides a defense penalty. Instead, it makes it harder for you to maneuver around and easier to push around. The biggest reason for this was because of the *significant* change to Minor Feint, below.

[highlight]Minor Feint[/highlight]
You follow up a strike with a quick lunge that throws your opponent off balance.
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Minor Action _ Melee weapon
Trigger: You successfully hit a creature
Target: The triggering creature
Attack: Any ability vs. Will
Hit: The target is unbalanced.

Click to expand...

Yup. It's now actually a minor action, but only usable once per encounter. It also uses any ability score, so it's not significantly low for, say, your average fighter. We'd tried working in Charisma and all, and even Bluff, but this has worked best. Furthermore, it requires you to have already hit that turn - which means, in the vast majority of cases, you've unbalanced them but can't follow up. Spend an action point, though, and then the other options are available.

What we've found here is that it sees play from most people at least once every other fight. Most classes don't have [a lot of] uses for their minor action, especially early on, and so it gives people something to do with it. Even if they don't follow up with another maneuver, it's been interesting tactically, just shutting down OAs or setting someone up for a push from the group.

The other three powers have changed a bit, as well.

[highlight]Disarm[/highlight]
Taking advantage of your foe's temporary distraction, you attempt to wrest away his sword.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action _ Melee weapon
Target: One creature suffering from the unbalanced condition
Attack: Any vs. Fortitude
Hit: One object held by the target is dropped; it falls 1d4 squares away from the target, in a direction of your choice.
Special: Creatures with natural weapons are effectively disrupted – they suffer a -2 penalty to attacks that would use the weapon and damage dice are reduced by 2 steps, until they spend a move action to recover.

Click to expand...

[highlight]Trip[/highlight]
While your enemy attempts to regain his guard, you swing for his feet.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Move Action _ Melee weapon
Target: One creature suffering from the unbalanced condition
Attack: Any vs. Reflex
Hit: The target falls prone.
Miss: You are unbalanced.

Click to expand...

[highlight]Sunder[/highlight]
Sometimes, taking away your opponent's tools is the surest way to victory... and right now, he's not able to stop you.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Free Action _ Melee weapon
Trigger: You hit with an attack that deals damage
Target: One triggering creature suffering from the unbalanced condition
Attack: Any vs. AC
Hit: You are weakened for the triggering attack, but you strike your target’s carried weapon, implement, or shield, or worn armor. If you choose to strike a weapon or implement, all attacks made using it suffer a -1 penalty until it is repaired. If you strike armor or a shield, the bonus provided by that piece is reduced by 1 until repaired.
Special: If you strike at an object that is already damaged, the penalties stack.

Click to expand...

Disarm is still a standard action. Of the three, we've found it to be the most powerful, as it can severely limit most targets for the rest of the fight. We've also dropped the "you can be holding the item" option, as it completely removed an opponent's chance to do the "dive for his sword" type thing. We've also noted how it effects creatures with a natural attack (and weapon-using monsters, really, for the DM.)

Trip has been boosted slightly. It's now a move action, which means it's actually got the virtue of being the only maneuver that can be used in the same round as forcing the unbalanced condition (without spending an action point), though that does require three successful rolls. Reasoning is that prone, while solid, isn't a huge condition, and honestly, people just never used it. That said, given that it's as easy to use at is, it has a penalty for missing.

Sunder has been changed the most. It's now a triggered free action when you hit an unbalanced target - you can weaken yourself for the triggering attack in exchange for adding the debuff. In play, we've found that sometimes the damage is worth cutting, and sometimes it isn't - in either case, it's actually helped reduce grind slightly. I'll admit, it is more fidly, and it helps that we're playing an online game using a tabletop program where I can just drop the negative onto the token and not have to worry about remembering it from round to round.

These changes have been definitely "in progress" lately, and we're still not sure if they're the final version, but they've worked much better than in the original post, and they actually see use. We've also been talking about some way to allow them to be used at range - archer trick shots, an arcanist heating up the pommel so that the target drops it, that sort of thing - though it's not been worked out yet.

I think the sunder change is very interesting, I like the weakened at will mechanic.

I still think disarm is too strong. What about something like this:

Disarm
Taking advantage of your foe's temporary distraction, you attempt to wrest away his sword.
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action _ Melee weapon
Target: One creature suffering from the unbalanced condition
Attack: Any vs. Fortitude
Hit: One object held by the target is dropped; it falls 1d4 squares away from the target, in a direction of your choice.
Effect: The user of this attack must exhaust 1 Action Point.
Special: Creatures with natural weapons are effectively disrupted – they suffer a -2 penalty to attacks that would use the weapon and damage dice are reduced by 2 steps, until they spend a move action to recover.


This makes disarm a very special very specific attack. Its still usable, but less often.

I think an Action Point is too expensive, just make it an Encounter or Daily. Also, I think reducing the damage dice is a little over complicated...why not just make it half damage?

Interesting...(I am also good at making house rules that don' see much use...).

One thing I thought was having manuevers as alt encounter powers, that is you can give up an encounter power and do a disarm instead. Obviously would need to be balanced...

I'm working on a Warrior Wizard multi-class that is using the Disarm, Sunder and Trip rules discussed here. Here is what I have so far.

Parry Defense
requires 1st level, Athletics Skill, Strong Attack;
trigger at-will action;
stackable +1 to ac and reflex,
+1 at 11th and 21st class level;
Armor Proficiency
requires 2nd level, Athletics Skill, Parry Defense;
permanent utility;
each armor type counts as one learned power;
reduce armor penalty -1,
-1 at 11th and 21st class level;
Dodge Defense
requires 3rd level, Athletics Skill, Parry Defense, Armor Proficiency;
trigger at-will action;
stackable +1 to ac and reflex,
+1 at 11th and 21st class level;
Lost in the Crowd
requires 4th level, Athletics Skill;
trigger at-will action;
stackable -1 to attacker’s attack as the caster gets close,
add -1 to attacker’s attack at 11th and 21st level;
Keep Distance
requires 5th level, Athletics Skill;
trigger at-will action;
stackable -1 to attacker’s attack as the caster keeps at a distance,
add -1 to attacker’s attack at 11th and 21st level;
Fast Runner
requires Athletics Skill;
permanent utility;
+1 to casters speed,
+1 at 11th and 21st level;

Strong Attack
requires 1st level, Athletics Skill;
standard melee attack;
strength versus armor class;
+1 adjacent target at 11th and 21st level;
Weapon Proficiency
requires 2nd level, Athletics Skill;
permanent utility;
each weapon counts as one learned power;
+1 attack bonus with the weapon,
+1 attack bonus at 11th and 21st level;
Feint Attack
requires 3rd level, Athletics Skill, Strong Attack, Weapons Proficiency;
standard melee minor action;
check Bluff Skill +1 versus target’s Insight Skill;
hit: target grants combat advantage +2;
+1 to Feint Attack Bluff Skill check at 11th and 21st level;
Precision Attack
requires 4th level, Athletics Skill, Strong Attack, Weapons Proficiency, Feint Attack;
standard encounter action;
dexterity versus reflex;
+1[w]damage, +1[w] damage at 11th and 21st level;
Called Shot
requires 5th level, Athletics Skill, Strong Attack, Weapon Proficiency, Feint Attack, Precision Attack;
the caster chooses the head, legs or arms as a target;
-5 attack penalty targeting the head hit: target blinded till the end of target’s next turn;
-4 the legs hit: target slowed;
-3 the arms hit: target attacks at -2; +1 attack bonus at 11th and 21st level;
Trip Target
requires 6th level, Athletics Skill;
While your enemy attempts to regain his guard, you swing for his feet.
At-Will * Martial, WeaponStandard Action _ Melee weapon
Target: One creature suffering from the unbalanced condition
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: The target falls prone.
Disarm Weapon
requires 7th level, Athletics Skill;
You attempt to disarm your foe’s weapon.
at-will standard action melee attack
target one foe’s weapon
strength or dexterity versus fortitude or reflex
hit disarms one targeted weapon which falls 1d4 squares away.
Sunder Weapon
requires 8th level, Athletics Skill;
You attempt to damage your foe’s weapon.
at-will standard action melee attack
target one foe’s weapon
strength versus reflex
hit reduces weapon attack and damage -1/maximum -3 and reduces the weapon value by 10%/maximum -30% value
The power level of your magical weapon or your class level must be greater than the power level of the magical weapon you are trying to sunder.
Pummel Target (minor; encounter) melee attack
requires 9th level, Athletics Skill;
versus reflex. Hit: target dazed; hit >5: target knocked prone; hit >10: target unconscious
Off-Hand Weapon
requires 10th level, Athletics Skill;
Ranged Attack
Unarmed Combat
Shield Bash
Immobilize Target
minor action coupled with Strong Attack
Mark Target
Knock Prone
Restrain Target
Slow Target
Weaken Target
Blind Target
Daze Stun Target
Deafen Target
Grab Target
Shift Target
Shift Self

so until some one typed this up these things had been removed from the game. thats messsed up. the more i read the more i hate the changes from my playing period to the current one.

long live old school freedom

Hey, I like your most recent version of the rules. Perhaps you can move it to the OP to save people some time?

I like the new 'Minor Feint'. I would suggest allowing people who use the bluff skill to unbalance an opponent (instead of using it to grant combat advantage). Bluff can only be used once per fight, and there is a feat that lets you do it as a minor action. I think you should reward players who make bluffing part of their strategy or build by allowing them to use it with your subsystem.

I like your current implementation of disarm, but still find it overpowered. A group of minion soldiers could easily disarm any player (weapon keyword VS non-AC defense means they can easily do this to defenders as well). Have you had anything like this happen yet, and how was it resolved?

I don't like the stopping power that disarm gives a party against any solo carrying a weapon. Keep in mind that a weapon attack vs an NAD is almost sure to hit. Two players that blow perhaps one action point between them can easily take an enemy's weapon away, pick it up, and never give it back.

I REALLY REALLY like trip as a move action. The fact that many at-wills trip and damage a target made it rather weak as a standard.

Finally, I would rule that stunned, helpless and surprised targets are also considered unbalanced. Disarming them just makes sense.

We've got to look at these "exploits", "feats", "powers", "utilities" whatever.. as natural progressions of becoming a better weapons fighter.

Can anyone see any of the "feats" below as repetitive? Are there any worthy feats to add? I'm revising this and here is what I have so far.

Strong Attack
requires 1st level, Athletics Skill;
standard melee attack;
1 adjacent target, +1 adjacent target at 11th and 21st level;
attacker rolls attack 1d20 + strength modifier + half level + or – attack condition modifiers versus target’s armor class defense;
Weapon Proficiency
requires 2nd level, Athletics Skill;
at-will utility;
each weapon counts as 1 separate power that must be learned;
attacker gets +1 attack roll bonus with trained weapon, +1 attack roll bonus at 11th and 21st level;
Feint Attack
requires 3rd level, Athletics Skill;
minor action in addition to standard attack;
attacker adds a +1 bonus to 1d20 + charisma modifier and +5 if trained in Bluff Skill versus target’s 1d20 + wisdom modifier and +5 if trained in Intuition Skill;
+1 Bluff Skill bonus at 11th and 21st level;
[FONT=&quot]on a hit, the target grants the attacker +2 combat advantage for the standard attack;[/FONT]
Precise Attack
requires 4th level, Athletics Skill;
standard melee or ranged attack;
1 target;
attacker rolls attack 1d20 + dexterity modifier + half level + or – attack condition modifiers versus target’s reflex defense;
on a hit, weapon damage + level;
Call Shot
requires 5th level, Athletics Skill;
standard melee or ranged attack;
1 target;
-5 to the attack roll to try to hit the target’s head, on a hit, the target is dazed till the end of the target’s next turn;
-4 to the attack roll to try to hit the target’s legs, on a hit, the target is slowed till the end of the target’s next turn;
-3 to the attack roll to try to hit the target’s arms, on a hit, the target is weakened till the end of the target’s next turn;


Shield Bash
requires 5th level;
Trip Target
requires 5th level;
Kick Target
requires 5th level;
Punch Target
requires 5th level;
Pummel Target
requires 5th level;

Parry Defense
requires 1st level;
Armor Proficiency
requires 2nd level;
Dodge Defense
requires 3rd level;
Close Quarters
requires 4th level;
Keep Distance
requires 5th level;

Range Attack
requires 1st level;
Disarm Weapon
requires 6th level;
Sunder Weapon
requires 7th level;
Off-Hand Weapon
requires 8th level;
Sneak Attack
requires 9th level;

Toughness Training
requires 6th level;
Improve Initiative
requires 7th level;
Run Fast
requires 8th level;
Shift Self
requires 9th level;
Pull Push
requires 10th level;

Blind Target
requires 5th level;
Daze Target
requires 5th level;
Grab Target
requires 5th level;
Immobilize Target
requires 5th level;
Mark Target
requires 5th level;

Knock Prone
requires 5th level;
Restrain Target
requires 5th level;
Slow Target
requires 5th level;
Stun Target
requires 5th level;
Weaken Target
requires 5th level;