Use a free action after a charge?

Artoomis · Aug 21, 2009

Tyken12 said:
...It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge ... the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance...

Analysis (with feats written out):

1. Fey Charge: When you charge, you can use your fey step racial power as a free action to replace up to 5 squares of your charge movement with teleportation. If the charge attack hits, you do not expend fey step.

2. Eladrin Swordmage Advance: When you use your fey step racial power to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as a free action.

Reading these two together, the question becomes:

When using Fey Charge are you using "your fey step racial power to teleport to a square adjacent to an enemy?" Since you "use your fey step racial power as a free action" during the charge then, in most cases, you could use Eladrin Swordmage Advance before the charge attack is resolved - in fact, if you use it, it must be used before the charge attack is resolved or it is too late to use it. The exception being, for course, if you use Fey Charge but do not end up actually "teleport(ing) to a square adjacent to an enemy," which might very well happen.

This means you might use you fey step racial power in a charge, be successful with two attacks, and no have expended your use of the fey step power.

That's a really nice synergy, though it did cost a minimum of three feats to set it up (the two feats mentioned here plus at least one multiclass feat).

Flipguarder · Aug 21, 2009

Mengu said:
Or maybe they just like to play by the rules.

I think with the number of free actions from an item or feature that happen after a charge specifically gives at least room to debate that idea. Under the assumption that 'thems the rules" those items wouldn't work, because a charge ENDS your turn, they would need to be immediate reaction abilities.

Mengu · Aug 21, 2009

Flipguarder said:
I think with the number of free actions from an item or feature that happen after a charge specifically gives at least room to debate that idea. Under the assumption that 'thems the rules" those items wouldn't work, because a charge ENDS your turn, they would need to be immediate reaction abilities.

Immediate reaction wouldn't work since you can't use immediate actions during your turn.

free action works based on the trigger, as I said earlier. If there is no trigger for the free action satisfied by any part of the resolution of the charge attack, and the action is worded such that you can only use it during your turn, then you can't use it after a charge. Warden's mark is one such action (as are the two other free actions I gave as examples earlier, Quick Wild Shape, and Boots of Eagerness).

Flipguarder · Aug 21, 2009

Mengu said:
Immediate reaction wouldn't work since you can't use immediate actions during your turn.

free action works based on the trigger, as I said earlier.

This is the problem: free actions work on your turn, a charge ENDS your turn. It is the last thing that happens on a turn with a charge, unless you use an action point. Now if you have an item, power or feature that gives you a power that is a free action triggered on a charge, it cannot work unless you allow free actions on your turn, because otherwise you would be acting on a turn that is not yours, which would require an immediate or opportunity action. Because a charge ENDS your turn.

AbdulAlhazred · Aug 21, 2009

Flipguarder said:
This is the problem: free actions work on your turn, a charge ENDS your turn. It is the last thing that happens on a turn with a charge, unless you use an action point. Now if you have an item, power or feature that gives you a power that is a free action triggered on a charge, it cannot work unless you allow free actions on your turn, because otherwise you would be acting on a turn that is not yours, which would require an immediate or opportunity action. Because a charge ENDS your turn.

There are two problems with this:

1) A charge doesn't end your turn. Granted, it forbids you to use additional actions afterwards, but your turn is not technically over.

2) You can still resolve the entire issue if you resolve triggered actions at step 5 of the triggering action (or in many cases they will resolve in earlier steps anyway). See my last post for the logic involved. This interpretation actually deals with (I believe) all the issues surrounding charging and free actions. It also does so without assuming that any old free action can be used in the middle of other actions.

Flipguarder · Aug 21, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
There are two problems with this:

1) A charge doesn't end your turn. Granted, it forbids you to use additional actions afterwards, but your turn is not technically over.

So your turn isn't over, but you can't take actions. Is it just me or is that kind of like saying, "I'm not done with school, but I've gone to all my classes and don't have any other school activities left." It's essentially speechcraft.

Although I see your point about resolving the action, a triggered action is part of the next action imo. Otherwise any free-action ability triggered by an attack is part of that attack. So Your second charge from swift charge is still part of the first charge. So you get two charges in a row.

I'm not saying this is definite, just that things are not as clear as you make them out to be.

Festivus · Aug 21, 2009

dammitbiscuit said:
It's a free action, which you're free to take on anyone's turn. If your DM is being a stickler and saying you can't take any more actions in your turn, simply resolve the effect while the next guy takes his turn.

But it could be important... particularly if you are talking about ongoing effects and the save that occurs at the end of your turn... that you take the free action before another person's turn and on your own turn. What if you had been given a +2 to attack on your turn... and you have a free action to attack with? You want to attack with that free action on your turn, not someone elses where you lose the +2. I am sure there are more examples... but as a DM, I usually rule that unless it explicitly says "after a charge" on the free action, it doesn't happen on your turn.

Orcus Porkus · Aug 21, 2009

Some of you guys don't read the rules, but make gigantic assumptions about them. I really don't understand your problem with free actions. The rule:

Free Action

Free actions take almost no time or effort. You can take as many free actions as you want during your or another combatant’s turn. The DM can restrict the number of free actions in a turn. Examples: speaking a few sentences, dropping a held item, letting go of a grabbed enemy.

Can it get any simpler than that? The only restriction is the DM. He can call it quits when a PC is abusing them. the free attack during or after charge is certainly not an abuse.

Mort_Q · Aug 21, 2009

Orcus Porkus said:
the free attack during or after charge is certainly not an abuse.

People keep using the word certainly, when things obviously aren't certain, else we wouldn't have such long threads about them.

After the charge is not allowed, as per the charge rules.

After you resolve a charge attack, you can’t take any further actions this turn

A free action is still an action.

During the charge is arguable.

Orcus Porkus · Aug 21, 2009

Mort_Q said:
People keep using the word certainly, when things obviously aren't certain, else we wouldn't have such long threads about them.

After the charge is not allowed, as per the charge rules.

A free action is still an action.

During the charge is arguable.

then the free action simply takes place after the turn ends.
Taking away the free attack the PC rightfully earned is totally unpracticable and unfun. Any DM here who actually does that? I prefer common sense.