Use a free action after a charge?

Mort_Q · Feb 22, 2009

Black Knight Irios said:
2: Flaming Weapon:
Has a Daily Power you can use after a hit with the weapon, again a free action.

Whereas example 2 has enough normal situations to be applied w/o trumping the general rule after a charge. I'd say you can't use it after a charge.

If the trigger is "hit with a weapon" then it is part of the charge, i.e. the basic attack (or other if using a power that allows it).

Regardless, if charging ends your turn, but you can take free actions during another combatants turn, then there is no rule preventing you from taking a free actin after a charge.

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 22, 2009

Mort_Q said:
If the trigger is "hit with a weapon" then it is part of the charge, i.e. the basic attack (or other if using a power that allows it).

Regardless, if charging ends your turn, but you can take free actions during another combatants turn, then there is no rule preventing you from taking a free actin after a charge.

Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon. The only other consistent interpretation (and the most absolutely straightforward one) is that you can invoke the damage ANY time after you hit with the weapon, like what, 3 rounds later? Pretty obvious THAT wasn't the intended reading, so the intended reading is 'right after you roll to hit and damage' (ie it must be the NEXT action). At best you'd be stretching that a whole bunch if you say "well, the next action is in the next guy's turn." But that is exactly the interpretation you would need to invoke in order to make it work after a charge, unless the flaming weapon power says something about 'usable after a charge attack' specifically.

All that being said my instinct would be to allow those types of weapon power activations that follow the "as soon as the blow hits you can take a free action" on the basis of the mechanic representing the PC plunging his sword into the target and then it bursts into flame right then. Still, that is a ruling based on fluff, not game mechanics or balance. So take it for what its worth, it could open the doors to some sort of obnoxiously nasty combo or somesuch.

Mort_Q · Feb 23, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon.

Which is before you roll damage, which makes it part of the Charge.

gribble · Feb 23, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
Yeah, except in the case of the flaming weapon the free action has to be taken IMMEDIATELY after you hit with the weapon.

Right. Note that the trigger is that you hit with the weapon, not deal damage with the weapon.
I.e.: charge is the action. It consists of the steps: move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and/or effects. You may not take any actions after you charge (i.e.: after you've applied damage and/or effects).

However, the free action in this case doesn't happen after the charge action, it is an reaction which happens during the charge action (after the make basic melee attack step and before the apply damage and effects step). Technically, even these steps aren't atomic (for example, the move step actually consists of a number of discrete "move one square" sub-steps, each of which can be interrupted by an OA).

I guess arguably if something was a free action which triggered on "you deal damage", then you could get into the situation where the free action is taken after the charge action is resolved, but as others have pointed out free actions can be taken when it's not your turn, so I think the order in that case would be: charge action, attackers turn ends, attacker takes free action (triggered by damage dealt during previous charge action) during next combatants turn. Of course, then you get into the weird situation that end of turn effects may alter things such that it's no longer legal/possible for the attacker to trigger the free action...

It's possible what actually should happen is that the charge consist of the sub-steps: begin charge, move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and effects, end charge.
And the players turn looks like: begin turn, <perform other actions>, charge, end turn. Then the free action could happen after apply damage and effects, but before end charge rather than after charge and before end turn (which is prohibited by the charge rules)...

AbdulAlhazred · Feb 24, 2009

gribble said:
Right. Note that the trigger is that you hit with the weapon, not deal damage with the weapon.
I.e.: charge is the action. It consists of the steps: move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and/or effects. You may not take any actions after you charge (i.e.: after you've applied damage and/or effects).

However, the free action in this case doesn't happen after the charge action, it is an reaction which happens during the charge action (after the make basic melee attack step and before the apply damage and effects step). Technically, even these steps aren't atomic (for example, the move step actually consists of a number of discrete "move one square" sub-steps, each of which can be interrupted by an OA).

I guess arguably if something was a free action which triggered on "you deal damage", then you could get into the situation where the free action is taken after the charge action is resolved, but as others have pointed out free actions can be taken when it's not your turn, so I think the order in that case would be: charge action, attackers turn ends, attacker takes free action (triggered by damage dealt during previous charge action) during next combatants turn. Of course, then you get into the weird situation that end of turn effects may alter things such that it's no longer legal/possible for the attacker to trigger the free action...

It's possible what actually should happen is that the charge consist of the sub-steps: begin charge, move, make basic melee attack, apply damage and effects, end charge.
And the players turn looks like: begin turn, <perform other actions>, charge, end turn. Then the free action could happen after apply damage and effects, but before end charge rather than after charge and before end turn (which is prohibited by the charge rules)...

Except the MTG trained rules lawyer in me (no, it was actually Star Fleet Battles training...) says that unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action, so the charge action (the pcs standard action) must resolve first before another (free) action can take place. Except of course the flaming sword does have that funny wording about activating 'after you hit' which implies 'before you do damage'. Thus it would seem to be exceptioned into use in a charge after all. Yeah.

Well, it is all rather a lot of rules lawyering to get there, but it seems like it would be doable. Now there are probably other items that don't include all that exact wording?

gribble · Feb 24, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action, so the charge action (the pcs standard action) must resolve first before another (free) action can take place.

I can see where you're coming from, and agree it's ambiguous. The only thing I have to back up my POV is the weird wording on when free actions can be taken on some items/powers (which certainly imply that they can occur within another action).

Kordeth · Feb 24, 2009

AbdulAlhazred said:
Except the MTG trained rules lawyer in me (no, it was actually Star Fleet Battles training...) says that unless the action is an INTERRUPT it cannot happen WITHIN an action

That's not correct. Only an interrupt can occur within an opponent's (or any other character's) action, your own actions are under no such restrictions (see for example elven accuracy). In fact, since you can't take immediate actions on your turn (and only immediate actions can be interrupts), if your statement were correct it would be impossible to use any powers that affect your own actions (like the aforementioned elven accuracy) on your own turn.

Obryn · Feb 24, 2009

fissionessence said:
I couldn't find any examples of free actions that you'd want to use after a charge (other than something like talking, which a DM probably wouldn't think twice about), but suppose for the sake of discussion there were a power that was a free action that allows you to make a secondary attack after you hit with any melee attack.

I can think of one, from the Barbarian playtest:

Swift Charge, which is a Free Action Encounter Power. If you drop an enemy to 0 HPs, you charge.

I'd personally allow this, but YMMV.

-O

Belares · Feb 27, 2009

Obryn said:
I can think of one, from the Barbarian playtest:

Swift Charge, which is a Free Action Encounter Power. If you drop an enemy to 0 HPs, you charge.

I'd personally allow this, but YMMV.

-O

I have a barbarian in my game and he has used that power. It sounds overpowering but it is within the rules. He wowed us with over 40+ damage(daily rage power and uses executioner's axe) at level 2 which dropped the guy when he charged and critted then he used swift charge...sucked for me ...great for the group.

Tyken12 · Aug 21, 2009

I actually have a case in which this problem is vitally important.
I play a "Jumper" build. It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge (when you charge you may replace squares in the charge with your Fey Step racial power. If the charge hits, Fey Step is not expended). So the base Class is Fighter, but I decided to multiclass into Swordmage. This lets me take the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance (When you use Fey Step to teleport adjacent to an enemy, you can make a Melee Basic Attack against that enemy as a FREE action). Catch the delema here? So I charge, replacing the squares of movement with my Fey Step power, then I should be able to use a free action to make a melee basic. I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!