Use a free action after a charge?

Mahali · Aug 21, 2009

Tyken12 said:
I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!

Not in our game.

Free actions, in general, are not written so as to allow them in the middle of other actions. Some are specifically written to allow their use to modify actions/rolls before resolution.

Your action is "charge" and once you charge you can't take other actions (except by Action Point, which is specifically written to allow it).

Mort_Q · Aug 21, 2009

More Necromancy!

Tyken12 said:
I actually have a case in which this problem is vitally important.
I play a "Jumper" build. It is a build that utilizes the Fighter feat Fey Charge (when you charge you may replace squares in the charge with your Fey Step racial power. If the charge hits, Fey Step is not expended). So the base Class is Fighter, but I decided to multiclass into Swordmage. This lets me take the feat Eladrin Swordmage Advance (When you use Fey Step to teleport adjacent to an enemy, you can make a Melee Basic Attack against that enemy as a FREE action). Catch the delema here? So I charge, replacing the squares of movement with my Fey Step power, then I should be able to use a free action to make a melee basic. I'm wondering whether I can make the "free-action melee basic" before the charge completes with its own melee basic (as part of the movement of the charge I used Fey Step, so the minute I reach my enemy I use a free action to attack it before the charge's melee basic actually resolves?)? It's a very confusing situation, and probably one of the few instances where this is truely a vital question. I'd love to hear if anyone has an opinion or other advice!

One is a Charge that uses Fey Step, and one is Fey Step (with no +1). They're not the same thing. At least, that's how I'd solve the problem if I was your DM.

That said, how many times can you hit AC in row with a basic melee attack?

Lucas Blackstone · Aug 21, 2009

To be fair, taking free actions during a charge ( for instance using the flaming sword power ) is different then taking actions after a charge, which is what is actually forbidden.

Triggers seem to interrupt actions even though they aren't interrupts since they wouldn't work on your own turn ( Elven Accuracy is an example of such, it goes off in the midst of your own attack but isn't an interrupt because you can't perform immediate actions on your turn ). Since Swift Charge has a trigger involved it would suggest that it doesn't trigger AFTER the charge, but during the resolution.

There's plenty of room for guesswork and intpretation though.

Vael · Aug 21, 2009

Triggerable free actions I'd allow after a charge ... so the Barbarian's Swift Charge would be allowed, but our group hasn't allowed our Warforged Warden to use Nature's Wrath after a charge.

TDarien · Aug 21, 2009

I allow free actions after a charge, for the following reasons.

1. Using an action point is specifically allowed. Using an action point is itself a free action (pg. 286). This, in my opinion, sets a precedent.

2. Free actions are listed separately from the Standard, Move, and Minor actions (listed together as "Your Actions") in the "Actions on Your Turn" section (pg. 269) I believe the "No further actions" clause of charging refers only to the "Your actions" sub-heading.

3. It doesn't seem game-breaking in any way to allow them.

This is simply my interpretation of the intent of the rules. I see the merit in arguments disallowing free actions after a charge, I just don't feel it is the intent of the rule to disallow free actions.

Mengu · Aug 21, 2009

Depends on the trigger of the free action. Half-orc's can use Furious Assault on a hit as a free action. I see no reason to deny this with a charge attack.

However, if a druid with Quick Wild Shape charges, and then wishes to wild shape as a free action after the charge, I would say no. The free action does not trigger from the charge action, and the charge action ends the druid's turn, so no free action quick wild shape at the end of a charge.

Another example would be, if you have boots of eagerness, which once per encounter gives you an additional move action during your turn, you would not be able to use this power after a charge, because again your turn ends, before you are able to use the necessary free action.

So in general, I'd say any free action power that says "during your turn" is not usable after a charge. Any power that triggers on a charge, hit, miss, damaging an enemy, bloodying an enemy, reducing an enemy to 0 HP, etc. will work after a charge. It would be silly for a thaneborn barbarian to not be able to use Roar of Triumph after taking down an opponent with a charge.

Ughman · Aug 21, 2009

The most relevant rules case for this question (in my opinion) is wardens. Wardens can mark 'as a free action during their turn' (paraphrasing) so it's a big deal if it's a yes or no for them.

For one, I believe the answer is no for that one, but there are definitely certain powers that are probably a yes (such as, say, the luckblade daily free action to reroll an attack.)

Mostly, I think free actions are one of the least well explained rules sections of 4e. I don't think the devs have been totally consistent with dealing with them, so the reality is that's its just up to your DM.

This isn't as bad as some cases I've seen, where there have been powers that are immediate actions and seem to be designed to work on your turn. (Note: basic definitions of opportunity and immediate actions state that you can't do them on your turn.)

Meh. I say employ common sense.

Flipguarder · Aug 21, 2009

Ughman said:
The most relevant rules case for this question (in my opinion) is wardens. Wardens can mark 'as a free action during their turn' (paraphrasing) so it's a big deal if it's a yes or no for them.

Honestly I think some people are just DM's who want to screw over their wardens :.-(

Mengu · Aug 21, 2009

Flipguarder said:
Honestly I think some people are just DM's who want to screw over their wardens

Or maybe they just like to play by the rules. Our warden in 5 levels has charged maybe 3-4 times, and when he has done so, it's usually into the midst of several enemies so it hardly matters if he marked them or not, they attack him anyway.

AbdulAlhazred · Aug 21, 2009

Well, this topic came up quite a while back, and there have been extensive discussions on this topic over on gleemax. I think the most solid interpretation, which Mort_Q I think at least hinted at back at the start of this thread, is the "nested resolution" interpretation.

On PHB p269 is the "Making An Attack" box. It says "All attacks follow the same basic process:" and then lists 5 steps.

Step 5 is "Deal damage and apply other effects (page 276)."

Now, we know that many free actions have triggers. Some triggers are explicit, like the wizard utility level 2 spells Shield and Feather Fall. Other free actions have implicit triggers, like Elven Accuracy, but they logically still MUST be triggered (or else we must accept that free actions can always happen in the midst of any other action at any time whatsoever).

Thus the logical construction is that a free action which is triggered has to be resolved at that point in the attack resolution procedure on p269. This isn't exactly news to anyone, the game just plain won't work right unless this is true.

In the case of free actions which trigger on taking some other action, and not explicitly on a specific point in the resolution procedure, like the barbarian's Swift Charge, we thus have an explicitly or implicitly triggered action that needs to be resolved in order to complete the triggering action, that is the triggered actions are pretty obviously nested within the action that triggered them. If no other explicit point exists for this resolution, then step 5 "apply other effects" is the catch-all.

So, in the case of Swift Charge you would trigger it at the start of step 5 "Deal damage" and it would resolve at the end of step 5, "apply other effects", which is before the end of the charge action and thus the "no actions after a charge" rule has not yet come into effect.

Alternately you simply have to believe that free actions are all able to be taken at any point within any other action and effectively the entire debate is moot. Of course in that case you will find there are a whole bunch of other bizarre things that suddenly become allowed, like wardens can mark halfway through their move action, etc. I don't know of any of these side effects that are game breaking, but it seems like it could be a pretty significant rules point and personally I'm not eager to open that can of worms.