Use a free action after a charge?

TDarien said:

It just seems silly to me that the rules were intended to allow you to spend certain types of free actions, and not others.

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This. It's a major headache to do this. I think the term "free action" is in the rules so you have a type of action that has practically no limitations, like all the other types have, except for what the free action description says itself. The only other limitation is the DM's call.

TDarien said:

Here's the thing. Spending an action point is itself a free action.

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Not exactly. Spending an action point is not a free action... It's not an action of any kind at all. It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.

Orcus Porkus said:

This. It's a major headache to do this. I think the term "free action" is in the rules so you have a type of action that has practically no limitations, like all the other types have, except for what the free action description says itself. The only other limitation is the DM's call.

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Yep... the trouble here occurs when the free action stipulates limitations, such as, "as a free action on your turn" or "at the beginning of your turn as a free action" or "when an enemy moves adjacent to you". Those specific limitations sometimes interact with other rules in a way that prevents you from using those free actions under certain circumstances.

Pbartender said:

Not exactly. Spending an action point is not a free action... It's not an action of any kind at all. It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.

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I hate to keep correcting you, but spending an action point actually is a free action that you can only take during your turn--see PHB, p. 286.

That said, I agree that spending an action point is the only free action that you can take on your turn once you've completed a charge. An exception that allows a specific type of free action to be taken in no way implies a blanket exception for free actions.

t~

I still say you guys are all missing the main point with triggered free actions. They happen on step 5 of the attack which triggered them (or earlier in some cases). Thus they happen before the charge has ended and there is no action restriction in place at that point in time. So if a barb charges, hits, downs the enemy, gets another action due to that etc, then those are resolved and are perfectly legal, as would anything triggered by them in turn be legal. Once all triggered actions are done, step 5 of the charge completes and thats it, you can't do anything more except burn an AP (which is obviously a straightforward except to "no more actions" I mean come on, stop abusing English).

This satisfies everyone. Nobody gets rooked out of a triggered action, and you can't expend actions once the charge is done, even free ones. It is 100% compatible with RAW and works fine.

As for resolving triggered actions after you end your turn? That's absurd. Anything that happens in your turn or as a consequence of anything else in your turn has to be resolved immediately. That's how the action mechanics obviously are designed to work. Maybe all of this is not so obvious to everyone, but it is exactly how any software engineer or programmer would understand the whole system working. You trigger something, its just stacked onto what your doing already and you can't save up things to do later in another turn (which is a whole other context). I mean I could write out the whole thing in formal notation, but it just isn't necessary (and how many people would understand it, lol).

Pbartender said:

Not exactly. Spending an action point is not a free action... It's not an action of any kind at all. It's a player decision that grants the character an extra action, which can specifically be taken after a charge unlike other actions.

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Actually, you're wrong.

PH1 pg. 286 said:

SPEND AN ACTION POINT: FREE ACTION

During your turn: You can spend an action point only during your turn, but never during a surprise round.

Gain an extra action: You gain an extra action this turn. You decide if the action is a standard action, a move action, or a minor action.

Once per encounter: After you spend an action point, you must take a short rest before you can spend another. Some monsters can spend more than 1 action point per encounter.

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I think another contributing factor to the issue is the fact that free actions are listed separately from "your actions" on PH1 PG. 269. There is, I think, a valid argument, that "No further actions" refers only to those listed under "Your actions" in that same rules block, "Actions on your Turn". Because they're listed seperately from Standard, Move, and Minor actions, they should be handled differently, and don't actually count as "Actions" in the strictest sense. This wouldn't be the first time that WotC used poor word choice in the rules text.

tiornys said:

I hate to keep correcting you, but spending an action point actually is a free action that you can only take during your turn--see PHB, p. 286.

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No worries... I rather be corrected in a firendly way, than continue being wrong and think I still right.

I must be blind this week.

Usually I'm better at this game.

AbdulAlhazred said:

I still say you guys are all missing the main point with triggered free actions. They happen on step 5 of the attack which triggered them (or earlier in some cases). Thus they happen before the charge has ended and there is no action restriction in place at that point in time. So if a barb charges, hits, downs the enemy, gets another action due to that etc, then those are resolved and are perfectly legal, as would anything triggered by them in turn be legal. Once all triggered actions are done, step 5 of the charge completes and thats it, you can't do anything more except burn an AP (which is obviously a straightforward except to "no more actions" I mean come on, stop abusing English).

This satisfies everyone. Nobody gets rooked out of a triggered action, and you can't expend actions once the charge is done, even free ones. It is 100% compatible with RAW and works fine.

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this is exactly how almost all groups play it. I've played with a lot of DM's in the NYC meetup, and none of them ever denied a barbarian his free attacks triggered during a charge. There was not even a discussion about it!

TDarien said:

Because they're listed seperately from Standard, Move, and Minor actions, they should be handled differently, and don't actually count as "Actions" in the strictest sense. This wouldn't be the first time that WotC used poor word choice in the rules text.

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Yes, they DO count as actions in the strictest sense. They just don't have restrictions on them like other actions. So you can take multiples in a turn, on other people's turn, etc. Every other action type is restricted in some way; that doesn't make free actions non-actions.

And if you cannot take actions, you cannot take free actions.

It's that simple.

What you're looking for is a 'No Action' power. Those things CAN be used after a charge because those powers are -explicitly- not an action to use.

So, charge says 'You take no actions, except spending an action point' which implies you get to take that action point's action. That means free actions cannot be taken.

You also can't take free actions if you are unconscious. It's -that simple-.

DracoSuave said:

Yes, they DO count as actions in the strictest sense. They just don't have restrictions on them like other actions. So you can take multiples in a turn, on other people's turn, etc. Every other action type is restricted in some way; that doesn't make free actions non-actions.

And if you cannot take actions, you cannot take free actions.

It's that simple.

What you're looking for is a 'No Action' power. Those things CAN be used after a charge because those powers are -explicitly- not an action to use.

So, charge says 'You take no actions, except spending an action point' which implies you get to take that action point's action. That means free actions cannot be taken.

You also can't take free actions if you are unconscious. It's -that simple-.

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If you combine this post with Abdul's concerning charging not being finished if there are free actions to be finished ON a charge, I would have an incredibly hard time arguing against that combined view of the current issue(s).

Flipguarder said:

If you combine this post with Abdul's concerning charging not being finished if there are free actions to be finished ON a charge, I would have an incredibly hard time arguing against that combined view of the current issue(s).

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Oh yes, if you have free actions during the charge itself (and that includes the attack and damage resolution) then by all means, use them.