Proposal: Retraining for New Material

KenHood · Mar 6, 2009

Howdy,

I thought we had hashed this out a while back, but I'd like to make the following proposal...

When a character levels up and that character wishes to retrain in new powers (such as those provided in Dragon magazine or new sourcebooks), that character may retrain twice -- but both times must involve new material.

In other words, two retrains in one level.

--OR--

So that a player can take complete advantage of new material, how about this...

Once in a character's career, a character can perform an 'Complete Overhaul', retraining as many powers (but not skills or feats) as the player sees fit.

(The reasoning behind the Complete Overhaul: The slow pace of leveling in PbP makes it difficult to change a character's concept quickly. In an RL campaign, it goes relatively fast.)

KenHood · Mar 6, 2009

I'd prefer the 'Complete Overhaul' option.

My PbP campaign is the first time I ever played 4th Edition, and I didn't understand the character roles very well. I designed my mage more along the 2E or 3E lines, and didn't realize the value of being able to control terrain. I'd like to be able to go back and fix the mistakes that I've made in selecting my character's powers and take advantage of the new Illusionist powers.

CaBaNa · Mar 6, 2009

How about:

When you level you may;

Retrain one feat,
Retrain one skill,
and
Retrain three powers from the same source, or two from separate sources.

PbP moves slow enough that you may have already been stuck with a poor previous decision for half a year before you got the first chance to level...

This gives the idea of the complete over haul, but keeps limits on the number of retrains.

SeaPainter · Mar 6, 2009

I believe the point of the "One Time Overhaul" is to make changes inspired by either:

A) Lack of initial understanding of 4e ruleset, resulting in more frustration than fun with character

B) Extreme desire to take advantage of new material, that was previously unavailable during character's creation

C) Possibly even general dissatisfaction with your character as it stands...

Doing it at any point, instead of waiting for a level up, is being proposed due to the time it takes to reach a new level. I might add that you have to have completed at least one adventure, and can't do it in the middle of an adventure.

What would be the allowed extent of this overhaul?

JoeNotCharles · Mar 6, 2009

I'd say you can't completely rewrite a character after hitting level 2 - if your dissatisfied with your build, you should know by that point.

Here's what I propose, replacing the normal retraining rules:

1. On levelling up, you may retrain as many skills, feats and powers as you want, as long as all the replacements except for at most one are from sources that weren't approved at your last level up.
2. On levelling up, you may change your choices of class features, as long as the replacement features are from sources that weren't approved at your last level up.
3. Once, before you are approved for second level, you may submit a new character sheet with the same XP as your original character, and call it the same character, retconning it so that "they've always been like this". This requires the permission of the DM and judge of any adventure you're on at the time.

That means you can change to a new race or class, or rejuggle your ability scores, as long as you do it before level 2. (And if you have enough XP to reach level 2, but haven't been approved yet, you can submit a replacement level 2 char instead of levelling up normally - that covers the case where you know you're not satisfied, but you didn't stop to think seriously about changing until it was time to level up anyway.)

EDIT: you might say that the second option allows you to effectively get a new character for free - you could "cheat" and rewrite a wizard as a fighter, for instance - but I don't think this is a big problem, as long as it's only allowed at low levels, because you could always just retire them and create a new character. I have no problem with people rewriting a wizard as a warlock or a cleric as a paladin, for instance, or even something like a rogue as a lightly-armoured fighter or ranger. Or a fighter/wizard multiclass as a swordmage, which wasn't available when the character started.

KenHood · Mar 7, 2009

Hey....

I like that idea Joe.

---

How does this whole proposal thing work? How long do we wait before folks approve it--or whatever happens with these things?

CaBaNa · Mar 7, 2009

This sounds difficult to track, is there an easy way to check what has been approved since the characters last level up?

If it is difficult, we don't have to make it restrictive. Open up retraining fairly widely to allow lots of variation in character.

Sure Bob forgot how to use Arcana, he got hit in the head so many times... But he sure learned how to Endure those wallops.
Sally isn't the girl she once was, she doesn't seem to heal people half as much, but wow that holy smite she delivers now is amazing.

Over the amount of time it takes for a character in PbP to level up, they go through a huge amount of RP. Unlike in a a RL game, where it takes three adventures to get the same amount (more often less) RP.

I like opening the retraining wide. The difficulty is finding the balance for how much RP brings a character to that retrain.

I also like the idea for switching a character up to level 2. I don't think it even offers much room for abuse, as in, if someone is specifically abusing it, the DM and judges will be hard pressed to miss it. The players will be calling out wildly most likely.

SeaPainter · Mar 7, 2009

I also really like Joe's idea... although I'm mostly for this for selfish reasons.

See, I like Cross... as a character he's fun to roleplay. However, when I made him, I didn't choose the class I wanted... I scoped out the boards, counted up the numbers of people filling roles/classes, and discovered that "wizard" was the most needed class on L4w. Thus, "Cross the Wizard" was born.

After playing for a little while, i'd like to "revamp" Cross in a way that keeps his RP & background... but is a class that I enjoy more (like perhaps a swordmage or darklock).

Anyway, just wanted to let my bias in this proposal be known (much like the "bugbears" admitted their bias in the Minotaur Thread).

Oni · Mar 7, 2009

I think there should be opportunity for mechanical rewrites of characters as there will be a regular influx of new material. This is essentially retiring a character and making another of the same level but keeping the same backstory and gear and conditions. I think continuity of characters should be rewarded rather than forcing retirement to tryout new things.

JoeNotCharles · Mar 7, 2009

CaBaNa said:
This sounds difficult to track, is there an easy way to check what has been approved since the characters last level up?

You can get the exact date of level up from the character sheet's page history on the wiki. All we'd need to do is start noting the date that sources are approved when they're added to the charter. (As an aside, I always look in the character creation thread first - maybe those should be linked from there, too.)