What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?




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    What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

    Hey all!

    Been pondering the levels of the D&D Gods. While WotC seem happy enough to cap at 35 (and I agree that makes sense given the game currently stops at 30th) they did mention a few possible levels of the others in the past.

    For my own purposes I have been using the followng guide to determine their power, though I am curious to hear what everyone else thinks about their levels.

    300+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 38
    100+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 37
    30+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 36
    10+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 35
    3+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 34
    1+ Million Worshippers = Solo Level 33
    300,000+ Worshippers = Solo Level 32
    etc.

    As such...

    Solo Level 37
    Bane
    Corellon
    Gruumsh
    Moradin
    Pelor
    Raven Queen

    Solo Level 36
    Asmodeus
    Avandra
    Bahamut
    Kord
    Tharizdun (imprisoned/weakened)
    Zehir

    Solo Level 35
    Erathis
    Lolth
    Melora
    Sehanine
    Tiamat
    Vecna

    Solo Level 34
    Demogorgon?
    Ioun
    Mephistopheles?
    Torog

    Solo Level 33
    Baalzebul?
    Orcus

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    If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars. I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block. That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.

    Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).
    Last edited by Shemeska; Friday, 13th March, 2009 at 10:44 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Shemeska View Post
    If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars. I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block. That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.
    I wouldn't call killing gods something that is inherently gamist. I am big fan of ancient mythology, and I tend to model my campaigns and campaign settings on mythology. As a result, while gods are incredibly powerful, they are like really, really, powerful mortals. They can be defeated or even killed by powerful mortals, demons, or spirits. As such, having gods at a power level where they can be actually killed by the PCs is desirable for me on the basis of flavor and narrative. Besides, if you can't kill gods, how do you have the PCs fight against god-killing abominations of the likes of the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir? I like the idea of the PCs taking a crack at one of those. Of course, I think Thor is an appropriate character to model an epic level PC on.

    As for the opening post, I have always hated the idea that gods draw power from their worshipers. To answer the main question though, I think gods are appropriate threats for characters in the upper end of the epic tier, and should primarily be elite or solo creatures.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SKyOdin View Post
    I wouldn't call killing gods something that is inherently gamist. I am big fan of ancient mythology, and I tend to model my campaigns and campaign settings on mythology. As a result, while gods are incredibly powerful, they are like really, really, powerful mortals. They can be defeated or even killed by powerful mortals, demons, or spirits. As such, having gods at a power level where they can be actually killed by the PCs is desirable for me on the basis of flavor and narrative. Besides, if you can't kill gods, how do you have the PCs fight against god-killing abominations of the likes of the Midgard Serpent and Fenrir? I like the idea of the PCs taking a crack at one of those. Of course, I think Thor is an appropriate character to model an epic level PC on.

    As for the opening post, I have always hated the idea that gods draw power from their worshipers. To answer the main question though, I think gods are appropriate threats for characters in the upper end of the epic tier, and should primarily be elite or solo creatures.
    Well, speaking of Midgard Serpent and Fenrir... I wouldn't. Seriously. I know that fighting gods and Elder Evils in their "True Forms" became fashionable once again in 3E, but even in the most Epic campaigns in my group, fighting deities (and seeing deities as "high-level mortals") has always felt alien and, well, silly. Avatars are another matter, so I agree with Shemeska on this one.

    The rules for deities just didn't work in 3E, and I don't think 4E managed a better job in that regard. Of course, your opinion may vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shemeska View Post
    If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars. I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block. That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.

    Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).
    This is basically my feeling on this as well. Well said.

  6. #6
    In my game at least, the Gods did not create the universe, and don't have that kind of power, they are products of the universe. So I don't tend to think of them on that kind of unreachable level. I like them at the insane but just barely possible level.


    As such, Upper_Krust, I'd agree with your levels that's about the range I'd use maybe top it at 37, as I can't see any party of level 30 touching a level 38 anything.

    Your listing of gods looks pretty good to me, numbers are about where I'd place them, care to stat them up for us.

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    Sounds good to me - maybe cap them out at level 40 solo and work down from there. Very like 1e D&DG capping at 400 hp and working down.
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    Deity power is not that strongly linked to number of worshippers, I don't think. The gods existed long before mortals did; faith may be a power source, but I would hardly call it the defining one. The Raven Queen doesn't give a damn what you think, as long as you don't start stitching Blaspheme legionnaires together without her permission. Hardly anyone even knows the Chained God's name--but even imprisoned in an immense, timeless, inescapable prison overseen by Torog the Jailor, cast down and bound by literally all the gods capable of wielding any power at all, he can still will servants into existence who are capable of butchering many Demon Lords merely by thinking about it! Tiamat is weak enough to die (and yes, that's worth commenting on) not because no one believes in her, but because she's literally half of the god she was.

    But those are just my thoughts, of course.

    I'm just an ivory-tower theorist! Please don't kill me!

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    Hey S'mon!

    Quote Originally Posted by S'mon
    Sounds good to me - maybe cap them out at level 40 solo and work down from there. Very like 1e D&DG capping at 400 hp and working down.
    Oddly enough I have been putting together a new method of determining deities by worshippers and then converting Earth's Pantheons to the new format based on the time during Earth's history when they were at their strongest.

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/eternit...t-history.html

    So for instance the Greek Gods would be weaker than the Roman Gods (or Roman incarnations of the same Gods).

    Using this new system, Odin works out as a Level 35 Solo opponent (the same as Vecna and Tiamat in 4E), while Thor would work out as a Level 31 Solo opponent (less than Graz'zt in 4E who is Level 32).

    The reason for this being of course that the D&D World has a single Pantheon whereas Earth has multiple Pantheons. So less worshippers to go around more deities.

    Of course in your campaign (where deities are potentially worshipped on multiple planets) Odin would probably be about Level 41 or so.

    As for capping deities at Level 40, I actually cap Greater Gods at Level 41 - though that Level would require a single Pantheon (with a single figurehead) having 10+ billion worshippers.

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    Hey Shemeska mate!

    Been a while, hope you have been keeping well since we last chatted?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shemeska
    If the system ends at level 30 for mortals, then I could see gods/archfiends/etc at around level 35-40, but only for their avatars.
    Certain Archfiends (Orcus) and Gods (Vecna) have already been detailed in 4th Edition.

    I would not give actual stats to their true forms since it seems (to me) silly to try to pin down a concept or a base idea of the universe made flesh into a stat block.
    Unless of course they are not 'concepts' but rather supernatural intelligences drawing power from those concepts. For instance a God of Fire doesn't necessarily control Primordials of Fire (such as Imix or Surtur) and vice versa, so there is no reason to assume that a God of Fire is 'fire' itself.

    Likewise your idea doesn't allow for the possibility of two Gods of Fire coexisting simultaneously.

    That's not the answer for a very gamist approach to D&D I suppose, and it's very much at odds with your view on the interaction between PCs and gods Krust, but that's the one that I would go with given my style of running.
    I know.

    Mortals can (and do) fight such beings in my game, but there's no statblock for the deity when it happens, and there's never anything so straightforward as a combat between god and PCs (except for PCs versus avatars which has happened).
    I prefer the 'all power is relative' route...as you know.

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