What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

pippenainteasy said:

The worshiper requirements here exceed the population of Faerun lol.

I know everyone here talks about "multi-spheric deities" but is that concept even acknowledged by WoTC? I was the impression that the "Corellon/Bane/Moradin" of different settings are just recycled gods (but meant to be distinctly separate entities, i.e. core moradin and FR moradin are different gods altogether) and not actually meant to be the same being that occupies multiple spheres.

Click to expand...

Nice thread necromancy - just got through rereading the whole thing!

I address your point about different versions of the same god in different settings here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=252348&page=2#post4710334

With the benefit of more experience of 4e, I now know that as you say 4e does indeed take the Moocockian approach; the Bane of Forgotten Realms is not the same entity as the Bane of the core D&D world, and the death of one does not affect the other.

Re big populations of worshippers - in my core homebrew D&D campaign setting Ea, the same god can be worshipped on dozens of linked planes, allowing them to rack up very high Worship Point tallies. My player Upper_Krust adapted and expanded by WP system for his published 3e products, so that's what he's going with. Recently though I've been using dissasociated settings - killing Bane in my Forgotten Realms campaign would not kill Bane in my concurrent Wilderlands campaign, though I might well have an 'echo' of that defeat affect the Wilderlands version. Likewise Bane in my FR campaign is a very major deity, whereas in my Wilderlands game he's a relatively obscure deity of the dead Nerathi Empire. Zehir-Seth appears in both though as the evil god of snakes, magic and necromancy.

Back on topic, do you think it's kind of odd Lolth (a greater deity) is Level 35, while both Vecna and Tiamat (also Level 35) are lesser deities? And Bahamut is either lesser or intermediate, yet he's Level 36.

Is there only a limited relationship between combat capability and worshiper base?

pippenainteasy said:

Back on topic, do you think it's kind of odd Lolth (a greater deity) is Level 35, while both Vecna and Tiamat (also Level 35) are lesser deities? And Bahamut is either lesser or intermediate, yet he's Level 36.

Is there only a limited relationship between combat capability and worshiper base?

Click to expand...

I think the odd thing there is Lolth being 'Greater', she was only a lesser goddess bumped up demon princess in 1e. But yes I don't think combat threat level should be directly determined by worshipper base - Aphrodite is a powerful goddess but not a powerful combatant. Maybe demons like Lolth, Orcus etc are unusually dangerous combatants, that would seem reasonable.

BTW if a 30th level PC is a Demigod, that implies an equivalent NPC demigod would be a 30th level Elite, which is equivalent to a 25th level Solo. However I just statted out the God Emperor Hatulin Seiheitt, demigod or hero deity exarch of Natch Ur, god of the deep earth, as a 30th level Solo. In the 3e Wilderlands stats he's listed as 50th level, so that's actually a comedown for him!

The God-Emperor Hatulin Seiheitt Level 30 Solo Controller (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid XP 95,000
Initiative +24 Senses Perception +23; darkvision
Vigour of Natch Ur aura 5; allies who start their turn within the area gain 15 temporary hit points.
HP 554; Bloodied 277
AC 44; Fortitude 41; Reflex 41; Will 44
Immune fear; Resist 15 acid, 20 poison, 20 radiant
Saving Throws +5
Speed 7 , Swim 6
Action Points 2
Indomitability of the Gods (no action; at-will)
Haulin may save against any and all effects upon him which include Daze/Stun/Dominate at the beginning of his turn (at +5 for being a Solo), but after any ongoing damage has been taken. He makes a single save to eliminate all such effects. He saves normally at the end of his turn.
Vicious Harrier (at-will)
If Hatulin and an ally are both adjacent to the same enemy, that enemy grants combat advantage to them even if they are not flanking.
R Iron Gaze (minor; at-will) • Charm, Fear
Ranged 10; +33 vs Will; 3d8 + 24 psychic damage, and the target is stunned (save ends).
m Ebon Mace of Natch Ur +6 (standard; at-will) • Fear, Weapon
Reach 2; +35 vs AC; 4d8 + 20 damage (crit 19-20 6d8+52), plus the target is pushed 2 and knocked prone.
A Cthonic Tentacles of the Deep Earth (standard; recharge 4 5 6) • Divine
Area burst 2 within 20; +33 vs Fortitude; 4d6 + 24 damage, and each target is restrained until the end of Hatulin's next turn.
A Invocation of Natch Ur (standard; recharge 3 4 5 6) • Psychic
Area burst 2 within 20; +33 vs Will; 4d6 + 24 psychic damage, and ongoing 20 psychic damage (save ends)
C Inspiration (minor 1/turn; at-will)
Close burst 20; one ally in the burst can shift-1 and make an immediate basic melee attack against a target in its reach; for that attack, if the target is immobilized (including stunned or restrained), the ally gains a +15 bonus to damage rolls and deals a critical hit on a roll of 16–20
C Divine Inspiration (minor; encounter)
Close burst 10; all allies in the burst gains a +15 bonus to damage rolls and deal a critical hit on a roll of 16–20, until the end of Hatulin’s next turn. (This bonus damage does not stack with Inspiration.)
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin, Primordial, Supernal
Skills Athletics +30, Intimidate +29, Religion +28
Str 31 (+25) Dex 28 (+24) Wis 26 (+23)
Con 29 (+24) Int 27 (+23) Cha 28 (+24)

I was just thinking, in 3E, Deities & Demigods, there was a clear connection between your deity rank and level.

An overdeity (like Taiia) was DvR20, greater gods (Corellion and Moradin) were ~DvR17-19, Intermediates (like Lolth) were ~DvR 14-16, and Lesser Deities were ~DvR10-12.

S'mon said:

The God-Emperor Hatulin Seiheitt Level 30 Solo Controller (Leader)
HP 554; Bloodied 277

Click to expand...

Shouldn't he have twice as many hit points?

pippenainteasy said:

I was just thinking, in 3E, Deities & Demigods, there was a clear connection between your deity rank and level.

An overdeity (like Taiia) was DvR20, greater gods (Corellion and Moradin) were ~DvR17-19, Intermediates (like Lolth) were ~DvR 14-16, and Lesser Deities were ~DvR10-12.

Shouldn't he have twice as many hit points?

Click to expand...

I halve all monster hps IMCs. 4e works much better that way.

'Divine Rank' is a more incremental version of demi/lesser/intermediate/greater. You can tie it closely to CR/level, but don't have to.

In my opinion, of course:

Whether "the gods" can even be challenged, or even understood, by mortals is established at the time of milieu creation.

If they cannot be challenged, they tend to be the type that do not personally appear, or do so only rarely or in forms that are either invulnerable or of too great a size to even engage.

Level is irrelevant in these cases. There is nothing the characters can do. Such appearances, if they even occur, tend to be accompanied by great radiating levels of charismatic and magical power that absolutely overwhelm all senses, no matter what type of protections are in place. They are the presence of power beyond power beyond fate and time. What they desire will happen. Is your character's level 1,000,000,000,000? Too bad, you lose.

I tend to want to run such powers as remote with control held by church officials to make religious situations more human. If only you can get good men in control, you can get good religion. Fail this, and evil will beset you. It also allows the overarching power, if it so chooses, to set up confrontational sects against those it has felt have fallen.

Then there is the next level down. Tremendously powerful gods that have avatars that appear in the mortal world. These avatars have mortal levels and can be challenged by mortals. Each avatar "takes up" a certain amount of divine power to create and so there is a limit on how many can be running around, especially linked to the base power tier of the deity involved. These types tend to fit most of what is presented such as in Planescape (to me) and many similar products. It is possible to go find these gods, meet and interact with them, be manipulated, and manipulate in return (if you're smart enough).

Hurting these beings is not always a smart idea, as their "over core" (or whatever you call it) has a long memory. If a demon prince is defeated in one slice (or slice group) of the Prime Material and cannot return there for 100-10,000 or whatever year penalty, then it may tend to try and retaliate indirectly by manipulating (or forcing) others to take up the role of vengeance. If the demon can do as, as some GMs may choose to impose absolute penalties against any type of retaliation due to the defeat, the "no power expenditure possible" option as a true reward for victory. But watch out after that as descendants are attacked and worlds smashed. (Ooh, a new campaign.)

To actually create a dead god with this set up, then to me one must eliminate all extant avatars, cutting the over core off from most of reality. (Or however you structure it.) This is a beyond epic task. Kill off Orcus? Good luck with that.

Then there are the type of gods that have only one divine existence, and if they can be slain, that is it. The Greek Gods may have been like this. David Eddings gods in the Elenium where like this. When
The key to this is making sure you know what kind of gods yours are, and where they sit.

In the middle, with the avatar system, their "mortal facing" construct can be whatever level is appropriate for your current players to go against.

The top level is simply impossible. The bottom level is very difficult to manage given that presets can easily be overun, unless you intend to allow floating presets that actualize only when encountered. This is why I tend not to use it much when I tinker with milieus.

The D&D gods aren't monotheistic universal gods, for the most part their power is secluded to a very small region and have a fairly limited number of worshipers (just look at how many "gods" are in Faerun). A greater god in D&D has the worshipper base of maybe the city of San Francisco (if even).

There's no reason for them to "untouchable"; in reality they are nothing more than "the boss of Texas" or some such.

pippenainteasy said:

The D&D gods aren't monotheistic universal gods, for the most part their power is secluded to a very small region and have a fairly limited number of worshipers

Click to expand...

On the flip side, real polytheistic gods tended to have all the population in the area worship them. Everyone in Greece propitiated Hestia when the time was right. In D&D, the same man who openly and honestly worshiped Saint Cuthbert during the day might offer a sacrifice to Vecna at night to cover up the fact he slept with his neighbor's daughter.