What levels should the D&D Pantheon Gods be?

Jhaelen · Mar 18, 2009

S'mon said:
Yet it's a lot closer to many real world mythologies than is your approach. Myths don't present (eg) the Norse gods as anything like these omnipresent unkillable diffuse energy beings of yours.

Well, it's been ages since I read real world mythologies (though I did read a lot of them). Care to give me some examples of mortals slaying gods?

arscott · Mar 18, 2009

Gugalanna, the sumerian Bull God, was slain by Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Gilgamesh is described as a demigod, but Enkidu is fully mortal.

In general, there are few circumstances where a clearly-defined non-god has killed a clearly defined god, but much of that is because deific status is never as well defined in mythology as it is in D&D. Real-life figures from greco-roman and egyptian history have laid claim to godhood. On the opposite side of the spectrum, celtic mythology survives only through christian adaptaions, and the celtic dieties are described as mere historical figures.

What leads to the "deities can be slain by mortals" reasoning isn't so much mythological precident of actual deicide, but the mythological descriptions of gods and their powers. Compare the abilities evidenced by a 30th-level Wizard to the abilities evidenced by the norse god Loki, and your Wizard ends up kicking ass. Or consider the story of divine exploits that begins the Volsunga saga: The dwarves Hreidmar, Fafnir, and Regin are enough of a threat to Odin, Loki, and Thor that they can compel the gods to pay a weregild.

Lurks-no-More · Mar 18, 2009

Upper_Krust said:
For my own purposes I have been using the followng guide to determine their power, though I am curious to hear what everyone else thinks about their levels.

For my 4e uses, I'd decouple the power of a god from the numbers of their followers.

The idea that gods are powered by the faith of their worshippers, which began as a subversion of the older ideas, has become the de facto standard, so I think it deserves to be subverted right back.

(And, as I think I've said before, it solves the question of who in their right mind would worship a being like Torog, granting them godhood: the King that Crawls exists, no matter how much you loathe and fear him, and you have to deal with that.)

S'mon · Mar 18, 2009

Jhaelen said:
Well, it's been ages since I read real world mythologies (though I did read a lot of them). Care to give me some examples of mortals slaying gods?

Diomedes 'kills' Ares before the walls of Troy. As the Greek gods are immortal, Ares respawns back on Olympus.

Normally it's deity kills deity, eg Loki getting Hodur to kill Balder. Mortal killing deity is common in fantasy fiction, Moorcock's Eternal Champion does it a lot.

resistor · Mar 19, 2009

I think what's most interesting about this thread is the attitude shift from ~5 years ago.

When Deities & Demigods came out for 3e, it was pretty soundly derided for "Why in the world would we want stats for gods!?"

Shemeska · Mar 19, 2009

resistor said:
I think what's most interesting about this thread is the attitude shift from ~5 years ago.

When Deities & Demigods came out for 3e, it was pretty soundly derided for "Why in the world would we want stats for gods!?"

This thread maybe. I don't know if there has been any major change in the gaming public at large though, or even here at Enworld. Sounds like time for a poll I think. I'd be honestly curious to see the result.

Mouseferatu · Mar 19, 2009

Shemeska said:
This thread maybe. I don't know if there has been any major change in the gaming public at large though, or even here at Enworld. Sounds like time for a poll I think. I'd be honestly curious to see the result.

Because we know how accurate those are.

Trust me, there's a huge demand for god stats, whether or not it shows on EN World. When my Bane article came out and didn't include stats for Bane (since he's above 35th level, and I was told that we're not statting up gods higher than that), there was a huge outcry on the WotC forums. Even though most people liked the article, a large number were upset that Bane's stats weren't included.

Kask · Mar 19, 2009

Currently the gods in my campaign are from Greek mythology, thus unkillable even by other gods. I assign them levels based on magic ability and what not but, since they can't be killed it isn't that meaningful.

Fallen Seraph · Mar 19, 2009

Well when my campaign does actually include Gods (that aren't say for example a machine) they usually are much weaker and more local then normal D&D Gods. As such in my campaigns, yeah, they definitely would have stats.

They are somewhat like Animism, where there are hundreds, thousands of them that reside over every thing in the natural world. They are generally more powerful their your average spirit but you could claim they are spirits.

It isn't uncommon for a God to be wandering the streets of a city for instance, or town or village. More likely then not near whatever aspect they reside over.

As far as power goes well it depends. When prepared I would say they would be the equivalent of around Level 30 (+ needing the plot-points to attack them), but when unaware, a simple dagger in the back could kill them. Now what this does to the aspect they reside over is up for grabs. They may be reborn to continue residing over it, the aspect may die off, berserk, etc.

Shemeska · Mar 19, 2009

Mouseferatu said:
Trust me, there's a huge demand for god stats, whether or not it shows on EN World. When my Bane article came out and didn't include stats for Bane (since he's above 35th level, and I was told that we're not statting up gods higher than that), there was a huge outcry on the WotC forums. Even though most people liked the article, a large number were upset that Bane's stats weren't included.

Yes, but that's the WotC forums we're talking about.